Boat Gun Patterns

[The Baron]

I have been staring lustfully at the Early Rustic Arms "boat gun" which is a 24" barrelled smoothbore. I am imagining that one of these in .75 cal. might be a wonderful turkey gun.

Does anyone have any knowledge of how a gun like this might pattern with shot loads? Of course the sighting distance would be short, but would the pattern compare to the "typical" 36"+ barrels? How about velocity with shot and PRB?

 

[Rebel]

No experience with that particular gun, but i have a Navy Arms double barrel .12 ga that has 28" barrels with cylinder bores, and it works fine with shot and also with rd balls. I have taken a whole lot of doves, quail, ducks, geese and rabbits with it. I also got my first wild turkey with it this spring. I wouldn't think that 4" less barrel would make that much difference in the way it patterns. JMO

 

[Mike Brooks]

As long as you can get with in about ten yards you may have a chance.

 

[mmahlock]

The barrel sounds a bit short. Have you checked to see if its leagal?

Why do you want such a short barrel for hunting turkeys?

 

[The Baron]

The barrel length is quite legal here. And I thought the gun would be very portable and handy to have on my knee when that big gobbler is strutting around. Besides, a new gun is always fun and I was wondering if it would be very useful.

If you think about it, it SHOULD pattern fine. Once upon a time we all thought 30" barrels were necessary on modern waterfowl guns, and we'd "ooh" and "ahh" at the 36" Marlin goose gun, assuming it was a super deadly long range killer. Now I shoot 26" and it patterns great at all practical ranges. I have seen barrels as short as 21" do very well on geese/ducks. So I am looking for first hand experience with how the shorter barrel works in a flintlock smoothie. Sure a 42" barrel gets you 18" closer to the game, but is it really necessary to have a brarrel that long to throw a good pattern in a BP shotgun?

Mike Brooks - do you have any actual experience with that barrel length, or are you just guessing?

 

[Mike Brooks]

Mike Brooks - do you have any actual experience with that barrel length, or are you just guessing?

You be the judge.

These barrels run from a shorty of 50" up to 60". Bore size from 24 bore up to 4 bore. Longer is better. If you're going to have a stubby little barrel like that you better figure on getting it jug choked. Modern shot guns and muzzleloading fowlers are totally different animals.
My experience has been , the longer the barrel the tighter the shot pattern. I've had little to no success with short barrels with a standard flint breech as the throw a donut shaped pattern if they are cylinder bored. These long barreled fowling guns will also handle a MASSIVE shot and powder charge. A long barreled flint 10 bore will easily handle 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 oz. shot loads.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Got to go with Senor Brooks on this one though I have never had anything with barrels that long. Had the quivers over the 60" Hudson Valley Fowler on Track a while back but didn't have the price of a used car to pay for it. Point of fact is that a shot pattern begins to expand upon leaving the muzzle, probably due to back pressure. Longer the barrel, the tighter the pattern (to within reasonable dimensions obviously) plus the added benefit of sight radius.

Short barrels are fun, no doubt. Had may a happy houor with the old blunderbuss and it was only about 18" in the barrel. Big handful of empty .22 cases made hash out of empty 10-30W cans!! Also made hassenpfeffer out of the local cottontail population too. :haha:

 

[The Baron]

OK - I see you have plenty of experience with long barreled guns. And there are some dandy's there! :v. I was certainly not questioning your experience with fowlers in general, I was trying to find out if you had experience with really short guns, because a 1 sentence opinion with no detail is hard to use when I'm looking for advice from others. We all know the internet - lots of guys are all too happy to toss up an opinion without fact. If you have experiences to share, I'd love to hear them because that is exacatly why I posted - to get detailed advise and examples regarding short barreled flinters, from experienced BP fowler shooters such as yourself.

You do indicate some experience with short guns. So are you saying you have owned and tried "boat guns" or similar short guns in the past? With a short barrel, would patterns improve shooting 3F, even in a .75? Is the poor, donut pattern just a result of overcharging and having too violent an explosion at the muzzle? I've seen these donut patterns in both my 12ga. and 20ga. BP when the powder charge got too heavy (it's a logical occurrance, especially if you blow your overpowder/cushioned wads through the pattern). Certainly, with a very long barrelled gun, the charge may burn entirely in the barrel and the mess of shot might be "settled" so to speak by the time it enters the world. So, it is logical you'll get better results in a longer gun (pattern and velocity). What about using paper shot cups in a shorter gun? Would lighter loads pattern better in shorter guns? Are shorter guns really workable at all? Also, you say the long guns handle massive charges of shot well. What (do you think) is the reason for this? If a short gun puts a lighter load in a nice pattern out to say 25 yards, that's all the performance I am looking for. I've killed my blackpowder turkey so far (only 4 of 'em, but it's a start) with both 1 1/8oz. and 1 1/4 oz. shot charges and all shots were inside 25 yards (getting them in close is the fun part, but if I need to have them at 10 feet I doubt I'll have much success. LOL.). So I don't see a point in throwing 2+ ounces and trying to make a BP gun itno a long range turkey killer - I think the velocity limitations would override that tactic. Can a short gun be workable to say 25 yards?

So, I'm not expecting a short gun to perform quite like a long gun - I'm not that green. But lets hear some specifics about short gun experiments. The facts will help me a lot. Thanks for sharing your experiences with me!

 

[Mike Brooks]

The shortest barreled flint gun I've personally patterned is 32" 12 bore with a standard breech.32" is short in my book for a serious fowling piece. It shot a miserable donut pattern no matter how I loaded it. I finaly put .005 jug in it and it straightened right out. It throws an excellent skeet patern now. I had a percussion gun with 26 14ga barrels. it also shot a marginal pattern unless I split my fiber wad, and even then it was inconsistant." My 33" barreled double flint gun in 18 bore with a patent breech on the other hand, shoots excellent patterns no matter how I load it. I've had a couple friends that have blunderbuss's with 20" barrels and their pattern is so awfull you'd be better off throwing the gun at a turkey rather than trying to kill it by shooting at it.
My experience with 42" and longer barrels from 20 bore thru 10 bore has always been good. they have all thrown excellent patterns with very little work at the pattern board. Longer barrels have rarely thrown a donut shaped pattern for me.
I gave up on shot cups, paper or plastic many years ago. They may shoot an excelent patern for 3 or 4 shots then the pattern will go wildly off center or shoot a massive hole in the backboard.
If you want specifics for a 24" barrel and the patterns it will throw I suggest you get one and take it to the pattern board. The details of it's patterning ability will become obvious almost immediatly. Reguardless, jug choke will straighten it out enough to shoot turkeys at a reasonable range.
By the way, is a "boat gun" someting that was used at some point in history? Seems and odd term for a gun, and I've never heard of a gun built specifically for use in boats, unless it might be a swivel gun or a naval blunderbuss.

 

[rich pierce]

I'm just glad nobody was asking for a pattern (architectural drawing) for boat guns, canoe guns, etc., which are a recent invention. Fusils in the 17th and 18th centuries were long and the natives did all their travel for trading of furs in canoes. I'm pretty sure they came armed.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Hereabouts we make our muzzleloading "boat guns" bigger 'cause the boat can carry it easier than we can. No sense making a gun to be carried in a boat smaller. .75" is a tiny bore for a proper boat gun. :hmm: Heck, that little booger couldn't kill more than a half dozen geese at once even if you snuck into the sleeping flock 'afore light. Not worth botherin with.

Ye want sumpin that'll anchor 40 or 50 at a shot at least.

:rotf:

(Now ye know where they stole the idear for The Monitor).

2" bore punt gun (copy of an existing original).

Now that's a boat gun!

 

[Stumpkiller]

Actually, I've got a 26" m/l cylinder bore 12 ga (a New Englander) and it throws 40% in 30" at 25 yards, just like a cylinder bore should. Good for grouse if you're fast, or they're slow. If you can get turkey inside 25 yards and pepper 'em with #6 or #5 it would work fine.

 

[The Baron]

Ah...that's better. A little meat and some humor too!

Soooo... a 24" flinter isn't looking too good for turkey, most likely. I'd hate to spend the $ and wait, only to find I have a useless toy. Perhaps a 36" Cumberland Fowler in .75 would be a better choice. :hmm:

As for it being a "boat gun" I have no idea how PC they are. Presently, my knowledge of flintlock gun history is only that of an interested newbie. I've also heard them called "canoe guns" as well.

Thanks Mike! :hatsoff:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Ah...that's better. A little meat and some humor too!

As the Good Book says: "Neither a troll nor a Poindexter, be."

What is fun is taking a short barreled fusil and loading it up with nine 0.310" balls and having at "reactive" targets like cans or blocks of wood at 20 yards or so. :rotf: "Ye Olde Uzi". They throw round alls OK too, often as not. But if you want to tighten patterns your choices are: lengthen the barrel, wrap the shot in a paper capsule or shot cup, fit some kind of choke, or load more lead and less powder.

 

[marmot]

For REALLY short barrels... I've played with shot in both a light horse pistol (.65) and a trade pistol (.62)... they scatter shot delightfully unless a great deal of time was put into loading. Finally got a 5 yd pattern of about 30 inches by using a .5 in fiber overpowder wad, newspaper "shot cup", and buffering shot with corn meal, topped with a light card wad to hold the mess in place...kinda a quickie Eley wrapped shot column. Not really too effective for hunting with the pistols, but fun to reduce the tin can population. Similar loading sequence in a 32" barrel .62 trade gun was very nice, and better yet in the .75 Brown Bess... I have to agree with Mike - longer barrels do give better patterns with black powder. BTW... Where DO you get those anti-aircraft size barrels?

 

[mmahlock]

Cool. :bow: :bow:

To see how it shoots, take it to a trap or skeet range and use their pattern board. You'll be able to see exactly where the shot goes and play with the powder/shot load until you get it they way you want it.

:thumbsup:

Sorry about this post if someone else has already said it. I'm in a hurry.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

If I may throw in a couple of points.

IIRC, Stumpkiller's TC has a Nock or Manton style patent breech, as do Mr. Brooks' double and mine, and as Mike has noted, for short barrels, these are easier to obtain good performance with than the plain breech of a trade gun, musket or conventional fowler.

One of my hunting partners was going to get a short trade gun in .54/28ga, but decided that 36" was short enough. The barrel turns out to be long enough in that smaller bore to give good, even, cylinder-bore patterns with a variety of loads and components. Both of us have rifles with similar-length barrels (33" & 36") and have never noticed any more awkwardness handling these than any decent bow or long-gun, and the weight and balance of this smoothbore makes it *SWEET* to handle. Besides, this is about the shortest barrel that looks "balanced" or "graceful" in a single.

I also second the recomendation to try to at least handle some firelocks with different stock styles and barrel lengths, and to shoot some if possible.

Gotta go check on the hockey game and the preliminary election returns.

Joel Vecchione

 

[Wes/Tex]

Wowie! That be a 'punt-gun' for sure. Sort of reminds me of an old Louisiana duck blaster I saw years ago. Seems one of the local nimrods built, bought or stole a double 2 bore with 48" barrels that had both a flint and percussion lock. Old Boudreaux lashed it to the bow of his John-boat and would paddle through the cattails till the muzzles cleared to point in the middle of the lake. He had the triggers wired to both go off together. The percussion barrel swept the whole flock and the lag time allowed the whole boat to dip back, raising the bow when the flint side went off getting a passel of those who got off the water! Now there was poacher par-excellant! At least till the day when the Louisiana game wardens got their hands on him!! :youcrazy:

 

[Berk]

Mike I seen on one of your other post that you shoot at Friendship. Do you use these long barrel guns on the sporting clay range? I shoot the quail walk and have shot it using my sons trade gun 42" barrel but I dont think it would be easy to get on the fast targets in the woods with a 50 or longer barrel. Just curious about your experiance.

Berk

 

[Mike Brooks]

No, the passing shots are unrealistically fast for these long barreled guns. I'm pretty comfortable shooting 42" to 44" barreled guns in that game, as long as they're big bored and light. My brain is WAAAYYYY to slow for the quail walk, I've shot it 1/2 dozen times or so and I'm absolutly opitifull at it.I shoot alot more skeet than I ever did sporting clays, and since I've been building guns full time and maintain a booth at friendship for the last ten years I rarely get any chance at all to shoot down there anymore. I may start abandoning my booth in the mornings and start bustin' skeet again. :thumbsup: