Bought a pieta 1858 Remington. Looking for some load data and answers.

[muzzleloadingat18]

First its a beyond iffy carry for SD but if you want to, that is your right to do so. No one said we should be protected from poor decisions, just that it should not impact the rest of us.

You already have your metric for what works, you are shooting animals. Nothing replaces an animal though you mostly shoot those from the side so its not a full front human.

Ballistic gel or you home made gel is far better. It does not duplicate shooting people but it gives you a comparison of penetration or lack there of. Its somewhat analogous to a body but lacks the cloth layers and ribs (center of mass)

It sounds like you are having fun playing with it but if you are serious and want to carry a BP pistol, get a conversion cylinder for it and use a proven cartdige and bullet. Maybe not as fun as playing with things but the reality is you are trying to reinvent the airplane.

The bullet and cartridge mfgs have spent tens of millions and have real research behind them. You are not going to even come close.

And dirt? Tells you nothing.

String up your deer and put some rounds into it from the front, that will tell you something relevant.

Penetration is a combination of lead hardness and holding together, that is why modern SD ammo is built the way it is. The guides up here have shifted to a 45-70 cartridge gun (usually the level action) with hard cast lead to penetration on a brown bear. )

I hunted with a 7 mm and you are not going to beat 2800 fps at 175 grain hunting bullet in your wildest dreams with a hand gun. Have I carried a hand gun? Yes. Its better than nothing but its a poor 2nd to a good rifle and hunting bullet.

If you don't believe me go watch Paul Harrels video on cap and ball for self defense. He has a good test medium shirt ribs then oranges to simulate lung tissue more ribs and a hight tec fleece bullet stop. Watch that and tell me you think that's iffy

 

[Sound Tribe]

I have a question about the barrels... can you swap them if you bought an extra and have both lengths?

For example, if I got an 8" can I buy a 5.5" barrel and switch between them? or would it need the smaller rammer too, or just need to buy a whole new gun?

I hear it's easier to do with Colts

 

[CyrusP]

You can’t swap Rem barrels. Not easily
Anyway. I was thinking buy the 8” for hunting and the 5.5” for carry. In a Colt, it would be neat to have both barrels for hunting and carrying.

 

[Smokerr]

If you don't believe me go watch Paul Harrels video on cap and ball for self defense. He has a good test medium shirt ribs then oranges to simulate lung tissue more ribs and a hight tec fleece bullet stop. Watch that and tell me you think that's iffy

You don't get the point, literally. If that is all you have, then its the best you can do with the tech of the time.

So what you are doing with what is available, is trying both arms behind your back and saying, but it works! I have proof. All you need is the dead and wounded from the Civil War for that. You think those guys would not trade for a modern 38 special in a mili second (the time it takes to process the offer).

Give a rifleman a 30-40 Kraig and he would thought he had died and gone to rifleman heaven.

The reality is a long loaded BP gun may or may not fire, powder or cap. And if it does you can have a cap jam and in that time it could well be over.

A guy wrote in that he had two extra cylinders for a Cartridge Conversion ROA as backup. Lets see, fire 6 shots, get your tool, open the latch, pull the pin and rammer, fumble around and loose the parts...... The smart thing was using a cartridge conversion and the 6 reliable shots that gave him (a stray cap does not jam the gun). So the spare cylinders are totally useless (well I guess an extended shoot out behind cover that the other guy or guys don't know you are changing cylinders).

Pistols are tools of last resort. The only effective use of them ever was the Calvary and if it was in a close in melee they were the best they had for the job. Yes a pistol may be the only real option as its awkward and public to carry a rifle or a carbine around.

Now did I do non smart things when I was young? Oh yea. Some of em I was lucky to survive and some of them could have cost me major bucks (skinned by on loosing my 4 x 4 twice). But as my Mom says, you may not get smarter as you get older but if you pay attention, you acquire wisdom. Passing that on. And no trying to loose my Bronco the first time did not sink it, the second one sure did.

Sure you can do what you want, that does not mean its got any merit and you don't need to justify it. I can do what I want is good enough.

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

You don't get the point, literally. If that is all you have, then its the best you can do with the tech of the time.

So what you are doing with what is available, is trying both arms behind your back and saying, but it works! I have proof. All you need is the dead and wounded from the Civil War for that. You think those guys would not trade for a modern 38 special in a mili second (the time it takes to process the offer).

Give a rifleman a 30-40 Kraig and he would thought he had died and gone to rifleman heaven.

The reality is a long loaded BP gun may or may not fire, powder or cap. And if it does you can have a cap jam and in that time it could well be over.

A guy wrote in that he had two extra cylinders for a Cartridge Conversion ROA as backup. Lets see, fire 6 shots, get your tool, open the latch, pull the pin and rammer, fumble around and loose the parts...... The smart thing was using a cartridge conversion and the 6 reliable shots that gave him (a stray cap does not jam the gun). So the spare cylinders are totally useless (well I guess an extended shoot out behind cover that the other guy or guys don't know you are changing cylinders).

Pistols are tools of last resort. The only effective use of them ever was the Calvary and if it was in a close in melee they were the best they had for the job. Yes a pistol may be the only real option as its awkward and public to carry a rifle or a carbine around.

Now did I do non smart things when I was young? Oh yea. Some of em I was lucky to survive and some of them could have cost me major bucks (skinned by on loosing my 4 x 4 twice). But as my Mom says, you may not get smarter as you get older but if you pay attention, you acquire wisdom. Passing that on. And no trying to loose my Bronco the first time did not sink it, the second one sure did.

Sure you can do what you want, that does not mean its got any merit and you don't need to justify it. I can do what I want is good enough.

I bet you 100$ I can reload my 1858 Remington faster than you can reload a j frame single action army or bolt action rifle with loose ammo. Has a spare cylinder that can swap in a second. Secondly many many many people continued using cap and ball over cartridges guns. A 51 navy is actually more powerful than a 38 special. Not to mention an 1860 army or 58 Remington. And I don't know what tool you are referring to to change cylinders. On an 1858 Remington drop the loading lever pull a pin forward drop the cylinder and put the new one in then put the pin back and lift the loading lever. If you need more than 6 shots in a self defense situation you suck and need more range time. Yeah it's not a 7mm mag but it has more power than a 38 380 25 or a 9mm. So I'll ask what do you carry for self defense?

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

You don't get the point, literally. If that is all you have, then its the best you can do with the tech of the time.

So what you are doing with what is available, is trying both arms behind your back and saying, but it works! I have proof. All you need is the dead and wounded from the Civil War for that. You think those guys would not trade for a modern 38 special in a mili second (the time it takes to process the offer).

Give a rifleman a 30-40 Kraig and he would thought he had died and gone to rifleman heaven.

The reality is a long loaded BP gun may or may not fire, powder or cap. And if it does you can have a cap jam and in that time it could well be over.

A guy wrote in that he had two extra cylinders for a Cartridge Conversion ROA as backup. Lets see, fire 6 shots, get your tool, open the latch, pull the pin and rammer, fumble around and loose the parts...... The smart thing was using a cartridge conversion and the 6 reliable shots that gave him (a stray cap does not jam the gun). So the spare cylinders are totally useless (well I guess an extended shoot out behind cover that the other guy or guys don't know you are changing cylinders).

Pistols are tools of last resort. The only effective use of them ever was the Calvary and if it was in a close in melee they were the best they had for the job. Yes a pistol may be the only real option as its awkward and public to carry a rifle or a carbine around.

Now did I do non smart things when I was young? Oh yea. Some of em I was lucky to survive and some of them could have cost me major bucks (skinned by on loosing my 4 x 4 twice). But as my Mom says, you may not get smarter as you get older but if you pay attention, you acquire wisdom. Passing that on. And no trying to loose my Bronco the first time did not sink it, the second one sure did.

Sure you can do what you want, that does not mean its got any merit and you don't need to justify it. I can do what I want is good enough.

And to add to that. Some people can't carry or own a pistol. Like mmmm idk an 18yo. I can own pistols and I do but carrying one would get me into a sticky situation if I ever used it. I think a cap and ball is not only a valid form of sd but more than enough. I'm not tying my hands behind my back the government is. Plus it dose work dead is dead if it was a 44mag or a 22.

 

[Smokerr]

Ahh well, as I have told my wife on more than one occasion, you are attempting to interject logic into this.

The term here is conflating. Yes people have been killed with 22s. Equally some have failed to die when hit with a 44 magnum (Dirty Hairy aside).

Of course there is a reason the police do not carry 22s. They are not as effective as a 38 caliber. That is ballpark as 9mm is common as is 40 S&W as well as a smattering of 357 sig. What they all have in common is they are not BP guns and they carry modern SD ammo.

We need a video of that rapid reload, I assume you carry caps on that cylinder?

So, obviously not a discussion but on a bent, works for me. Carry on, drink Pepsi

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

Ahh well, as I have told my wife on more than one occasion, you are attempting to interject logic into this.

The term here is conflating. Yes people have been killed with 22s. Equally some have failed to die when hit with a 44 magnum (Dirty Hairy aside).

Of course there is a reason the police do not carry 22s. They are not as effective as a 38 caliber. That is ballpark as 9mm is common as is 40 S&W as well as a smattering of 357 sig. What they all have in common is they are not BP guns and they carry modern SD ammo.

We need a video of that rapid reload, I assume you carry caps on that cylinder?

So, obviously not a discussion but on a bent, works for me. Carry on, drink Pepsi

I'll take you up on that video. I currently have one cylinder so I'll take it out set it down and put it back in. Un loaded just for safety

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

Ahh well, as I have told my wife on more than one occasion, you are attempting to interject logic into this.

The term here is conflating. Yes people have been killed with 22s. Equally some have failed to die when hit with a 44 magnum (Dirty Hairy aside).

Of course there is a reason the police do not carry 22s. They are not as effective as a 38 caliber. That is ballpark as 9mm is common as is 40 S&W as well as a smattering of 357 sig. What they all have in common is they are not BP guns and they carry modern SD ammo.

We need a video of that rapid reload, I assume you carry caps on that cylinder?

So, obviously not a discussion but on a bent, works for me. Carry on, drink Pepsi

Here you go friend

Ahh well, as I have told my wife on more than one occasion, you are attempting to interject logic into this.

The term here is conflating. Yes people have been killed with 22s. Equally some have failed to die when hit with a 44 magnum (Dirty Hairy aside).

Of course there is a reason the police do not carry 22s. They are not as effective as a 38 caliber. That is ballpark as 9mm is common as is 40 S&W as well as a smattering of 357 sig. What they all have in common is they are not BP guns and they carry modern SD ammo.

We need a video of that rapid reload, I assume you carry caps on that cylinder?

So, obviously not a discussion but on a bent, works for me. Carry on, drink Pepsi

Here you go my friend

 

[SDSmlf]

Here you go friend

Here you go my friend
View attachment 291479

Great movie short. Question for you. What happens if you drop that loaded and capped cylinder and it lands on a capped nipple?

 

[azmntman]

Now lets see you do that with thugs holding stolen 9mm sideways and MFing you to death in the dark. Drunk. LOL

Actually VERY impressive. I would not have thought that fast was possible.

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

Great movie short. Question for you. What happens if you drop that loaded and capped cylinder and it lands on a capped nipple?

More than likely it would go off if it landed on a nipple. I did it to prove a point. And it was in caped and unloaded.

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

Now lets see you do that with thugs holding stolen 9mm sideways and MFing you to death in the dark. Drunk. LOL

Actually VERY impressive. I would not have thought that fast was possible.

If I can't solve it in 6 I can't solve it in 12. The same argument would apply to striper clips moon clips or speed loaders. Many people fail to reload a mag fed pistol under stress. So it's best to solve the problem without reloading.

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

Now lets see you do that with thugs holding stolen 9mm sideways and MFing you to death in the dark. Drunk. LOL

Actually VERY impressive. I would not have thought that fast was possible.

And I could do it a touch faster if I was looking at the gun and not talking.

 

[azmntman]

Well you did well my friend.

 

[SDSmlf]

More than likely it would go off if it landed on a nipple. I did it to prove a point. And it was in caped and unloaded.

Guess you proved the point of how fast you can swap empty cylinders, though I see no practical use.

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

Update loaded it in increments with a round ball. 25 30 35 40 45 55 and 60 was able to fit 60 gn of pyrodex and a round ball. Yes it gets diminished returns and it's a wast of powder but so is a dragoon or walker. 60gn filled it up flush with the cylinder but the ball compressed it well past the top of the cylinder. Could fit More if compressed in stages not necessary and it's a wast. I'm saying it on here bc I have seen people say you can fit xyz I fit 60 grains of pyrodex p and a round ball. Not great for the gun but won't hurt anyone.

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

Guess you proved the point of how fast you can swap empty cylinders, though I see no practical use.

Ok use ur imagination and pretend that was a second cylinder and it was already loaded. That represented me dropping a cylinder and putting a new fully loaded cylinder in.

 

[SDSmlf]

And to add to that. Some people can't carry or own a pistol. Like mmmm idk an 18yo. I can own pistols and I do but carrying one would get me into a sticky situation if I ever used it. I think a cap and ball is not only a valid form of sd but more than enough. I'm not tying my hands behind my back the government is. Plus it dose work dead is dead if it was a 44mag or a 22.

I’ve been carrying since the mid 1970s, but from what you are posting, appears there is much I can learn.

For concealed carry, I consider the 58, even one with a 5-1/2 barrel, on the large size. I would love to see the rig you use. I have a number of 58s in a variety of flavors, and know that one with a 5-1/2” barrel weighs in at over 2.5 pounds (40.4 oz) empty. It’s about 11.50” long, 5.75” high and about 1.62” wide….

My personal everyday carry choices are an 8.3 oz (.52 pounds) pocket pistol that’s 5.2” long, 3.5” high and .77” wide. It holds 6+1 and easily disappears in a pocket (an empty 58 percussion cylinder at 10.4 oz (.65 lbs) weighs more than this option). My ‘larger’ option comes in at 18.5 oz (<1.2 pounds). 5.8” long, 4.3” high and 1” wide. It’s 10+1.

I am not disputing the effectiveness of a 58 in 44/45 caliber that goes off. I just question how one would easily carry and conceal it. Maybe open carry? Now if one is working around legal restrictions, that’s a different story, but that doesn’t seem to be your argument, or has something been missed? Legal ramifications would not change if one uses a ‘modern’ handgun or a percussion revolver if used negligently.

Please show us your concealed carry rig for your 58 with a 5-1/2” barrel.

 

[leadhoarder]

Although I am sure reloading from a pocket or pouch in the real would be slower that reload was quite impressive. There are not may out there that have become that proficient.