Brand new

[oldwood]

Welcome Caleb from Pa. After scratch building around 150 m/l rifles of all kinds, in my old age I still prefer a lock-stock-and barrel gun. Utilitarian is the way. You just know another rifle will be ordered later............... oldwood

 

[Jay Templin]

Hey everyone. My name is Caleb Bowers and I’m from NC. I’m looking at buying a flintlock. I have wanted one for years. I’m wanting one that’s historically correct to pre Revolutionary War. I’ve always loved the Pennsylvania long rifle look. Anyway this world is new to me and I have no idea want to look for what’s a good one to but etc. I’m thankful to this community that wants to protect the 2A and preserve the history that the this country was founded upon.

Thanks again,
Caleb Bowers.

Bowers? Any relation to Tracy, Michael, and them?
Jay

 

[Celticstoneman]

Yes, but there were a number of VERY plain rifles made for different reasons. (The problem for us is realizing that is the really plain guns got used up and discarded or sent to the scrap heap during WWI or WWII.)

Many very plain rifles or smoothbores were made and sold to factors or merchants who sold them "retail" in stores or trading posts. A modern day similarity was when plain guns were sold in Hardware Stores for those of us old enough to remember it or more recently gun sections in Woolco, KMart and Walmart, until they stopped selling guns.

Some of the buyers had religious objections to any kind of decoration on guns. Some buyers demanded the very cheapest possible guns, and poor farmers were the most likely of that bunch. Some guys were just supremely "THHRRIIIFFFTY," IOW skinflints. LOL.

While an Apprentice Gunsmith was making his first complete gun, he tried to make it as fancy as possible. That was a sort of advertising even if he remained in his Master's Shop, but even more important to show off what he COULD do when traveling to work in another shop or begin his own shop on his "Journey" from his Master's shop.

Now AFTER the AWI was when there were too many gunsmiths for too few customers. That's when they had to add some carving and some engraving for free, to compete with too many other gunsmiths. Yet within a generation after that when there weren't too many gunsmiths, there were usually no more "freebies," as that ate into the gunsmiths' profits.

Gus

Gus,
I have wondered about the " Journeyman" title for sixty years! Just too lazy to research it. Thank you.
John

 

[Hatless]

Bowers? Any relation to Tracy, Michael, and them?
Jay

I don’t believe so.

 

[Mulebrain]

Welcome

My Kibler Colonial, you really cant beat it for the price in the semi custom gun market.

 

[Toklo Etee]

https://ofsortsforprovincials.blogspot.com/2017/?m=1
Found this in reference to firearm distribution in North Carolina in 1755.....

Interesting read

 

[Orin]

Welcome from me in Greensboro

 

[SOLANCO]

Welcome from Pennsylvania.

Seldom mentioned is that you live in your home with your rifles many more days a year than you are at the range or in the field with them. I like the things in my home that I live with every day to be as beautiful as they can be. There is no reason that a handy, accurate, reliable flintlock can not be beautiful. Kibler will give you a start on that.

 

[dave951]

Another hello from a fellow Tar Heel.

My advice to you- Join the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association and find a Charter Club near you. Nothing like hanging out with folks of like interest who know the subject matter better than internet pundits.

 

[Artificer]

Gus,
I have wondered about the " Journeyman" title for sixty years! Just too lazy to research it. Thank you.
John

Yep, even in the formalized trade guild systems of Europe, it may have been just a description of your abilities you had passed your apprenticeship or in some guilds, you had to pass a test to reach that status. That OR submit your "Master's Piece" for examination by the Officers of the Guild (who were all recognized Masters by that guild) for confirmation (or denial) of your Master Status.

We didn't have formal trade guilds in early America, but they still tended to use some of the terminology long past the days it was so important in Europe. Also, a good portion of Journeymen here remained Journeymen all their lives, because they always worked for a Master and never opened their own shop. I think things were somewhat similar for some Journeymen in Europe.

A whole lot of people have no idea the word "Masterpiece" was shortened from the "Master's Piece" one submitted for examination to become a Master.

Gus

 

[Sidney Smith]

I agree with the others here who are saying not to get too caught up in period correctness. For a new guy that's enough to take away some of the thrill. Who cares that a certain gun might have features that weren't around back then. Nobody alive today was either so who's really to say.

My opinion, go for a gun that looks decent and that has some good quality. Something like a Lyman or pedersoli. Neither companies produce exacting replicas as I recall, but they're close enough. The technology of the day is more important than worrying whether a certain stock shape or barrel color was etc. Who gives a rats ass about that. Just don't buy some piece of junk, and in my opinion Traditions guns are just that, junk. I understand that for some that's all they can afford. I get it. But from a new guys perspective there's no better way to ruin the thrill than with some piece of **** rifle.

Like I said go for something decent but not over the top expensive. Kiblers are great but for a first foray into muzzleloading, you sure you want to drop over a grand? A Lyman or Pedersoli can be had for less than that. Again, just don't think if you cheap out and buy a turd, that it's gonna smell like a rose. As to the latter, just save the money until you can buy the better gun.

 

[ML48]

I agree with the others here who are saying not to get too caught up in period correctness. For a new guy that's enough to take away some of the thrill. Who cares that a certain gun might have features that weren't around back then. Nobody alive today was either so who's really to say.

My opinion, go for a gun that looks decent and that has some good quality. Something like a Lyman or pedersoli. Neither companies produce exacting replicas as I recall, but they're close enough. The technology of the day is more important than worrying whether a certain stock shape or barrel color was etc. Who gives a rats ass about that. Just don't buy some piece of junk, and in my opinion Traditions guns are just that, junk. I understand that for some that's all they can afford. I get it. But from a new guys perspective there's no better way to ruin the thrill than with some piece of **** rifle.

Like I said go for something decent but not over the top expensive. Kiblers are great but for a first foray into muzzleloading, you sure you want to drop over a grand? A Lyman or Pedersoli can be had for less than that. Again, just don't think if you cheap out and buy a turd, that it's gonna smell like a rose. As to the latter, just save the money until you can buy the better gun.

Perfectly agree with you. back in the day there were many gun makers. Many never became manufacturers producing in great numbers. There were many that were local that were unknown and there products never showed up 100-200-300 years later. God only know how many different styles were made. Like you said, get one you like, and something that is decent.

 

[Jay Templin]

I don’t believe so.

Well, welcome anyway!
They’re also black powder shooters from Carolina, used to run the pistol match at the OVPR rendezvous in Surry, Virginia.
Jay

 

[Jay Templin]

Yep, even in the formalized trade guild systems of Europe, it may have been just a description of your abilities you had passed your apprenticeship or in some guilds, you had to pass a test to reach that status.

It’s actually from Middle English, based on the French “journee,” meaning “a whole day,” not “journey” as in “a trip.” (Thanks, William the Conqueror!) Apprentices could be paid, depending on their master and the contract, for work done in their free time. Journeymen got paid an entire day’s pay for doing an entire day’s work.
Jay

 

[Brokennock]

saying not to get too caught up in period correctness. For a new guy that's enough to take away some of the thrill. Who cares that a certain gun might have features that weren't around back then. Nobody alive today was either so who's really to say

Why give a new guy a hard time because he wants something correct?
We do in fact have very good information on what was is basically correct and what isn't. And Lyman, or T.C. isn't even close, and Pedersoli is only slightly better.
If this is the direction a new Comer thinks they may want to go, it will save them a lot of money over time to get things right the 1st time, or at least as close as possible. Several of us, who do actually care about making an effort at period correct gear, can attest to how much is sucks to buy a bunch of things we think are right, only to do more research, or just spend more time in the hobby and start to care more, and then find out we wasted money on some vendor's fantasy.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Welcome Caleb . Save your money for a Kibler and you will have a fine shooting and beautiful rifle and get to skip the grief associated with a lot of lesser rifles .

 

[Artificer]

It’s actually from Middle English, based on the French “journee,” meaning “a whole day,” not “journey” as in “a trip.” (Thanks, William the Conqueror!) Apprentices could be paid, depending on their master and the contract, for work done in their free time. Journeymen got paid an entire day’s pay for doing an entire day’s work.
Jay

Yes, that's part of it as well. However, apprentices could also not legally choose to leave their apprenticeship and go to work/or get trained somewhere else, which only a Journeyman could do.

Edited to add: In early America, an apprenticeship contract was as legally binding on both parties as a contract for an Indentured Servant. Matter of fact, it was not uncommon for a Master to advertise in the period newspapers and offering a reward for a runaway apprentice.

Gus

 

[TFoley]

Oh, found a link to a rifle that might suit your purpose to copy or give you more ideas:
Rifle Made by John Christian Oerter - Museum of the American Revolution (amrevmuseum.org)

We actually have an original letter from Christian Oerter to a customer on what probably was a somewhat higher grade rifle. The text translated from German reads:

Christiansbrunn, the 9th September, 1773

Most valued Friend Martin Baer,

At your request I have prepared [completed/finished] a good rifle and sent it over to Mr. John Hopson together with 4 pounds of Powder. The rifle is decorated [inlaid] with silver wire and well made, as well as tested and she shoots right well. It has a double trigger, so that you can fire with the triggers either unset or set. Between the triggers there is a screw with which you can make it lighter or harder to fire. There is also a ball puller with which you can pull the ball out no matter how rusty she gets. She costs 8 pounds all together and with the powder @ 3 shillings per pound makes twelve shillings, for a total of L8.12.-. Because it is very good powder I have added two pounds more than you requested. I hope it will suit you well. You can write me a couple lines to let me know how you like it. Together with friendliest greetings I am your faithful
friend and servant,

Christian Oerter
Gunmaker

Also, here's another link you may enjoy:

The Pre-Revolutionary North Carolina Rifle - Scavengeology

Gus

That is one EXPENSIVE rifle!! In today's £ that's £1370 - converted into today's $ - just under $2000.

Still, it WAS hand-made. But then, so was everything else.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Actually, tac, that's not all that expensive considering it was a custom, carved rifle with a supply of powder.

 

[excess650]

That is one EXPENSIVE rifle!! In today's £ that's £1370 - converted into today's $ - just under $2000.

Still, it WAS hand-made. But then, so was everything else.

Gee, I wish I could find a top tier builder to make that for double that $$. BTW, you couldn't buy that original Oerter for $200K.