Brass Butt Plate found in South Africa

[OceanLifeZA]

Greetings everyone.

Im wondering if any of you could possibly help with a Identification and dating on this brass butt plate that i found while metal detecting. Ive asked a few people and they think that it could be from a Brown Bess?

I found it up in the mountains here in Simonstown (South Africa) I also found a musketball a few feet away from it, the musketball was in near perfect condition and weighed around 1 and 1/8 OZ. I found both the plate and the musketball around 2 feet underground, the plate was near black when i found it, i layed it in vinegar for a hour or two to remove most of the silt and to get a better look at the etching.

Id really appreciate any info.

 

[Davey Boy]

Wow is that really awesome!

 

[OldRust]

Welcome to the forum sir. That's a Cool find ! I think its a bit elaborate for a military butt plate but we have folks here on the forum who will be along shortly with that knowledge.

Thanks
O.R.

 

[Ames]

Wonder if the rest of the gun rotted away down there.

 

[Davey Boy]

What is the diameter of the lead ball?

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
It is the butt plate from a nice modest quality British sporting gun from the mid 18th century or perhaps a bit later. It is typical of those sold for export and on some of the better trade guns. Here is another example on a gun that likely was the same quality:

dave

 

[Notchy Bob]

I don't think it's from a Brown Bess. Maybe a trade gun or sporting arm. The floral engraving doesn't look British to me, either. Maybe a Continental gun?

A lead ball of 1-1/8 ounce would go around fourteen to the pound, or about .69 -.70 caliber. Allowing for some windage, I would guess it would have been used in about a 12 bore (0.730") gun.

That's a great find, in any event! Thanks for showing it!

Notchy Bob

 

[Rudyard]

As speculated it is from a sporting gun not a military musket the ball is about 12 bore .what is odd is how it got there with no other related parts ..may I suggest you search the area again .It.
's a nice butt plate I would make up the missing parts just to put the plate into context but then I have made a lot of similar guns . My guess is it was from a gun made up from imported from England parts the lower hole is normally higher up .The most likley sort of gun it came from would be a Roer 'Pangewher' ? Cape Dutch musket .That such firms as Botha would make up in Capetown stocking up in Yellow wood or Stink wood .. All speculation of course but a fair maybe what ever it was it a nice find, I used to work in Natal on a rail line through Zululand to Richards Bay.
Regards Rudyard

 

[dave_person]

Hi Rudyard,
You may be right about local manufacture. It does not appear that the lug on the return was drilled for a cross pin as it would be on a British made gun.

dave

 

[appalichian hunter]

Now you have to build a gun of suitable structure for your butt plate.

 

[OceanLifeZA]

Many thanks for all the help. I didn't find anything with the butt-plate so i cant begin to wonder how that made it into the mountains without the rest of the gun. The plate was pretty deep in the sand so there could possibly be more interesting finds in the area which could be a bit deep for my detector to find.

 

[RonRC]

I've seen a few old muzzleloaders hanging on walls at restaurants throughout South Africa. Your butt plate could be from a British sporting rifle as stated by some of our experts here, but it would be much more fun to fantasize about it being from a Vortrekker flintlock. Then, again, it would be unlikely to find a Vortrekker's remnant around Simonstown.
There is at least one black powder/re-enactment group from SA on the net. I don't know if they still are active. They might be able to tell you more about your artifact.
I worked in SA at least a month each year from 1999 through 2017, then in 2019. The stories about some of the experiences are for another thread at another time.

 

[eggwelder]

Is there anything on record about the area being a former battlefield?
neat find- i only find nails and bottle caps

 

[toot]

WOW! what is the chance of finding them??

 

[BillinOregon]

I'd love to find something like that with my metal detector. I salute your perseverance for going two feet down.

 

[Rudyard]

Hi Rudyard,
You may be right about local manufacture. It does not appear that the lug on the return was drilled for a cross pin as it would be on a British made gun.

dave

Dear Dave . I have no documentation but since engraved parts where sent to the US. So possibly could mounts be sent to South Africa. The pin may be plugged with its rusted remnant but it was the unusaly low position of the lower screw that had me thinking it was fitted in SA .
The Voortrecker notion ? why not but they moved off into the interior in the 1820s Great Treck into the interior .Simons town is practicaly Cape Town doesnt look very mountainous but human affairs rarely fit any pat logical course . The Voor treckers warrant more interest they had a very action packed colour full history but are utterly ignored by Hollywood the Wild West looks tame in comparison. But it got Holly Wood. I cant recall any roars with such fine work they generally are plain working muskets some made up with old Brown Bess parts smooth bore about 12 or ten bore some with streight 'rifleing' and for some reason they often had set triggers and that distinctive roach belly stocking ' Bobbiyan boo' 'monkey leg' showing the lingering Dutch influence and longish barrels presumably to reload from a horse, Shorter doubles are sometimes found .I see I've suggested Simonstown didn't look mountainous but Table Mountain certainly counts as a mountain !. .I once went for tea with Barry Berkovitch who wrote a major work on Cape Dutch Muskets and walking in the dark to where I was staying I took a short cut across a building site and had a tumble. Next day I found ide lost my pocket knife & went & looked but failing to find it I went to Botha's shop & bought a Wolstenhomes four blade congress knife I still have . Cant function without a pocket knife never understood how any man wouldn't have one on him. However I digress .
Regards Rudyard

 

[dave_person]

Hi Rudyard,
I know something of the Voortrekkers. My grandfather fought under Lord Roberts in the second Boer war. He was captured while working on a railroad and telegraph by a Boer raiding party and spent a year in a Boer POW camp. We have many of his letters home from that camp. The Boers treated him very well despite how the British treated Boer civilians and soldiers later in the war. He got to know some of his captors well and listened to their stories. The Voortrekker story was a common one and he wrote that one of the most frequent reasons expressed by the Boers for the exodus in the 1830s was because the British Empire abolished slavery. They did not want to lose their slaves or live under those laws so they left for Natal and northern areas. Of course there were other reasons but that was a key one described by my grandfather's discussions with his Boer captors. My grandfather, whose name was John Hume Bell, eventually emigrated to America and worked for Bell Laboratories as an electrical engineer. When he died, the New York Times published his obituary noting that he had secured over 150 patents for designs relative to telegraph and telephone.

dave

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Dave Yes that makes sense it was over the two outlooks re ' servants'. coupled with a Calvanistic view in religion . And no doubt the custom of dividing farms equally between sons led to ever smaller farms .Plus by the 1820 they where the established 'White tribes of Africa' so away they went into the wilderness bible in one hand musket in the other to found the' Orange Free State' &' Transvaal,' Natal being a mix of British & Boer settlers But the guns are what we should be talking about so it was the examples I found in Museums and Private collections taking notes as I went since I see them as a fascinating evolved species of make for their distinct purposes they were up against all kinds of African game and some seriously hostile indigionous tribes by the time of the Treks the Zulu had slaugthererd or colsolidated the various other tribes under Dingiswayo & U Shaka & Dingane ( The half brother who murdered Shaka) well described as a' Black Napolion ' . However the killing of boar guests set the course for clash and that came at' Blood River' Nr Vriehiet from memory the two small cannon & circles of Ox Waggons so well prepared that they effectivley smashed the power of the Zulu ( Matabele are an of shoot , they got rumbled holding back looted cattle so went North pushing the Mashona into what was eastern Rhodesia . So typical Roar ' Ou Sanna' ( like' Old Bettsy' ) runs 40''long ten bore smooth barrel some simple rear sight & spider foresight often of ivory full stocked with the roach belly stock of local weeds stout in the wrist oft as not a good it not 'Best' flintlocks . Then some made for cap but the remoteness of these owners argued for flint locks well into breach loading days when the Westley Richards' Monkey tail' rifles became in favour . Set triggers more often than Ide think needed but despite the close range ball or' loopers ' thin leather bags of bb size shot . Was felt the right gun for their needs for the biggest game & any indigeinus threat .They used to turn up in England trophies no doubt but I've never seen them in the US . Anyway trust this is of some interest . Spellings a bit shakey these E gajet's cant spell worth a hoot ?

Rudyard
)

 

[OceanLifeZA]

What is the diameter of the lead ball?

here is a pic of the musket ball i found near by, as mentioned before it weighed 1 1/8 oz. the scratches on the ball are from my spade when i was digging.

 

[OceanLifeZA]

Is there anything on record about the area being a former battlefield?
neat find- i only find nails and bottle caps

I cant find anything specific about that exact area been a battle field, there are however cannons close by but these mostly date from 19th and 20th centuries