Builds......where to start?

[oldwood]

Go pick out a picture from a Shumway book that you like , then find someone to explain the options out there. This generally avoids getting some zombie rifle , that's too heavy , that doesn't fit you , or is just too ugly , as not to be seen by even by a close friend. A picture is worth a thousand words. You got some studying ta do. What's the rush , do it right.

 

[TDM]

How’s a guy gonna learn…and besides, when he comes back to this forum for advice we can spend 12 or 20 pages of arguing on the best way to solve his dilemma that none of us has ever seen...we can teach him…1) to go buy a gun or a kit
2) muzzleloading is mostly about arguing about…
a) methods
b) authenticity
c) who’s the smartest, bestest, most done it-est geezer
still alive to lie about it all.

Good points, all.

 

[1BadDart]

To the OP, my suggestion if you want to cut and use your own wood is to find a local cabinet shop and see if they have a kiln. If they don't, they may be able to point you to one. I'd cut enough blanks to do several.

 

[tenngun]

Think deep
You like brass but also SMR, some SMR back in the day were brass and silver mounted. They tended to be small caliber though .54 was seen
Light often comes with thin narrow butt. That looks soooooo sweet. However that Newton guy loves to spoil things. If your projectile is getting near a Ft ton of energy at the muzzle that means a foot ton of energy is smaking your breech plug. Energy is sucked up moving the weight of the gun. But still a hunk of it remains to smack your shoulder.
Bigger butt reduces the smack by spreading it out. Big guns tend to be nicer to shoot, and even a six and a half pound Fowling gun can be pleasant to shoot with a big butt.
You’re investing two hundred each for lock and barrel, near that much for furniture. Look to old guns as a guide. While HC may not be top of your list there was a reason guns were built in a particular style, and that all had to do with their shootablity.
While Virginia or Lancaster or Maryland might not be your goal those guns were made for heavy loads. And are a dream to shoot.
Now look at dainty Ohio. You want to put a .54 on that platform. You can, but a day at the range will leave you feeling like Rocky looked.
So step one review styles of guns in the caliber you want. Even big old Hawkens tended to be weighty to match them big bores

 

[Patched]

Think deep
You like brass but also SMR, some SMR back in the day were brass and silver mounted. They tended to be small caliber though .54 was seen
Light often comes with thin narrow butt. That looks soooooo sweet. However that Newton guy loves to spoil things. If your projectile is getting near a Ft ton of energy at the muzzle that means a foot ton of energy is smaking your breech plug. Energy is sucked up moving the weight of the gun. But still a hunk of it remains to smack your shoulder.
Bigger butt reduces the smack by spreading it out. Big guns tend to be nicer to shoot, and even a six and a half pound Fowling gun can be pleasant to shoot with a big butt.
You’re investing two hundred each for lock and barrel, near that much for furniture. Look to old guns as a guide. While HC may not be top of your list there was a reason guns were built in a particular style, and that all had to do with their shootablity.
While Virginia or Lancaster or Maryland might not be your goal those guns were made for heavy loads. And are a dream to shoot.
Now look at dainty Ohio. You want to put a .54 on that platform. You can, but a day at the range will leave you feeling like Rocky looked.
So step one review styles of guns in the caliber you want. Even big old Hawkens tended to be weighty to match them big bores

What he said…
I had parts laying around for 25 years and recently finished up two Hawkeny style halfstock rifles…I then went parts shopping for a new gun project….HOLY HALLS OF INFLATION!!!!!…..
A lock is $130….last one I bought was $55
a barrel is $230…Don Getz charged me $180 for his best
A hooked patent breech is $69-$89

Parts for a build will run you $500-600 add $200 if you like interesting wood…
Pecatonica has affordable kits in your realm of interest.

 

[rich pierce]

What he said…
I had parts laying around for 25 years and recently finished up two Hawkeny style halfstock rifles…I then went parts shopping for a new gun project….HOLY HALLS OF INFLATION!!!!!…..
A lock is $130….last one I bought was $55
a barrel is $230…Don Getz charged me $180 for his best
A hooked patent breech is $69-$89

Parts for a build will run you $500-600 add $200 if you like interesting wood…
Pecatonica has affordable kits in your realm of interest.

$800 minimum nowadays from a blank. All parts carry shipping costs. Small parts add up if you don’t make your own. If you want work done like barrel inlet and ramrod hole drilled, add $150 with all the shipping back and forth. This is why designing a build is a serious decision.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

Except for my first muzzleloader all my rifles have been Johny Cash kits. They usually begin with the purchase of a barrel and then I add a piece at a time until I get everything I need to build a rifle. The first rifle I built was named the ugly duckling for a reason but I have never been ashamed of any rifle I have built. It is a learning experience and the best way to learn is to do it. I have always tried to make each rifle a little better than the preceding one. I have built from blanks, Blanks with the barrel channel and ramrod and precarves when I can get what I want from them. I never get anything with the lock inlet, That is the only way you can make sure the lock is where it needs to be. Go for it you'll never know until you try.

 

[Patched]

$800 minimum nowadays from a blank. All parts carry shipping costs. Small parts add up if you don’t make your own. If you want work done like barrel inlet and ramrod hole drilled, add $150 with all the shipping back and forth. This is why designing a build is a serious decision.

My last 2 guns were done with wood given to me as a plank board…Without a bandsaw and a router and the exact correct bits…the knowledge to set up and know how concerning drilling a ramrod hole that $150 for inlet barrel channel and ramrod hole is worth it….changes mid- build could get expensive at today’s prices.

Like ronaldrothb49 said inlet the lock yourself if you want it in the right place.

Point is; parts, pieces and wood is expensive these days compared to the bargains I stock piled 25 years ago…

 

[Jedidiah]

What he said…
I had parts laying around for 25 years and recently finished up two Hawkeny style halfstock rifles…I then went parts shopping for a new gun project….HOLY HALLS OF INFLATION!!!!!…..
A lock is $130….last one I bought was $55
a barrel is $230…Don Getz charged me $180 for his best
A hooked patent breech is $69-$89

Parts for a build will run you $500-600 add $200 if you like interesting wood…
Pecatonica has affordable kits in your realm of interest.

I think you estimates are low! Locks I have seen are $200 or more. If you want one tuned by Chambers or Kibler, more! Everything else too is more. A basic Investarms kit is $600 dollars now, that used to be half that!

 

[1BadDart]

I put together a .40 earlier this year and have over $800 in parts. A (lh) Siler large percussion was $175 and a (lh) large Siler flintlock was $225. If I recall correctly, I paid $200 for my Rice .40 caliber barrel. Just in case anyone is checking online prices, Pecatonica's prices are not correct, the web site hasn't been updated to reflect the current prices.

 

[Patched]

I think you estimates are low! Locks I have seen are $200 or more. If you want one tuned by Chambers or Kibler, more! Everything else too is more. A basic Investarms kit is $600 dollars now, that used to be half that!

You’re probably correct…it’s difficult to process today’s prices and the pace at which they rise…shipping costs put me in shock and I ship something at least once a month…
I’ve started cobbling an underhammer gun project together….two springs, a hammer and a trigger….$85 plus shipping…an “add-a-barrel” action costs $160 Hopkins to $225 for an Allen forging…add in a barrel, stock wood, butt plate, thimbles, target sights, a rod and fixtures, a $35 patchbox…whew…I’ll be invested plus my labor…

 

[geb324]

Hi all,

Hope this is the right spot to post this:

Brand new to the forum but not new to flintlocks. Grew up in Wayne County, PA behind a T/C Hawken 50. I've hunted with it quite successfully the past 15 years and still love it but I find myself wanting something more "meaningful"??? If that's the word

I'd like to build (well, most likely semi-build) a longrifle. I've compiled a list of specs the past few years and I'll be honest up front......my imaginary rifle will not be historically correct. Is that a sin?

The lines and shape of the Southern Mountain/Tennessee (SM/T) rifle stocks really catch my eye. However, so does the brass furniture on my T/C, unlike the iron furniture on the SM/Ts.

I hunt deer/black bear here in PA but someday I'd like to chase an elk or other big game so .50 or .54 would be preferable. However, I understand they're not common calibers in a SM/T.

That all being said........as far as lock, stock, and barrel are concerned--which do I start with first?

Deluxe siler, golden age, or late ketland with a rainproof pan?

I'd like to cut a cherry or maple blank off the farm and send it out to have it made into a SM/T but where would I send it?

Straight octagon barrel with a breech plug and tenons for ease and assurance of a good cleaning......also with a twist rate that maxi-hunter or buffalo bullets would prefer over PRB.


Other than not being HC, do any of you guys think there are functional problems/cons with this blueprint for a hunting scenario? Just looking for some advice on how and where to start.

I apologize about the length. Thank you for your time and consideration. I look forward to what knowledge some of you modern mountain men may impart.

Merry Christmas,
Ben from PA

Siler is a good lock but will be over $200 for a flintlock Barrels also are pricey and a long wait to get one. go with Kibler you get everything with a short wait and for your first build with a Kibler you shouldn't have any issues and will be happy with the results Kibler locks are excellent no tuning needed.

 

[rich pierce]

This is one of those threads where the person that started the topic has left the campfire and we are talking amongst ourselves. That’s perfectly fine; just pointing out that no further refining questions or feedback has been given. Carry on!

To the OP, we are a passionate and opinionated bunch but still reasonably friendly. Don’t be put off. Just sift and see what would work for you.

 

[Patched]

This is one of those threads where the person that started the topic has left the campfire and we are talking amongst ourselves. That’s perfectly fine; just pointing out that no further refining questions or feedback has been given. Carry on!

To the OP, we are a passionate and opinionated bunch but still reasonably friendly. Don’t be put off. Just sift and see what would work for you.

I think the OP didn’t wanna hear that the wood from his property will be ready in 2 or 3 years…and specifically that a $1000 kit from J Kibler is actually somewhat of a bargain….given the numerous boxes to check on his route to a southern mountain muzzle gun built from scratch on his home grown lumber.
We overwhelmed him with prices, wait times and a few hints of some of the more “involved“ scratch gun building operations….

 

[oldwood]

Some folks can't imagine what effort , time , and imagination it takes , to make , build , create , anything. I once had a skeptic customer come by , and stopped to visit . I was inletting some parts on a rifle ,and he asked if he could watch. After the first hour , he decided the only tool he needed in his tool box was , a check book.

 

[user 34300]

I suggest going Kibler for the first one. You will have a great rife. More importantly you will learn how a quality rifle is put together. When you build something else you can apply what you learn to make a much nicer rifle. Many parts sets and precarved stocks are a hot mess. Unless you know where you are headed it will not go well. If you are building truly from scratch the experience will help you lay it out properly and build in a systematic way.

 

[Greg_E]

I only suggest a kit because it gives you all the parts you need, if you have everything save the wood, then grab some chisels and draw knives and scrapers and give it a go. What's the worst that can come of it? Do you have a sturdy bench and a decent vise? Do you have the ability to make tools?

I've been reading through the reprint of building a Pennsylvania long rifle, there are a lot of good tips that I would not have thought up on my own. Even shows basic construction and technique for building drills for the ram rod channel for use with a brace and why one might want to use a brace over other tools.

As far as some kits go, I priced out a kit from Track of the Wolf... To have them do all the work that I didn't think I could do was above $2000 for a percussion lock rifle. That makes a Kibler look like a bargain as it was basically the same amount of work completed.

 

[Patched]

I only suggest a kit because it gives you all the parts you need, if you have everything save the wood, then grab some chisels and draw knives and scrapers and give it a go. What's the worst that can come of it? Do you have a sturdy bench and a decent vise? Do you have the ability to make tools?

I've been reading through the reprint of building a Pennsylvania long rifle, there are a lot of good tips that I would not have thought up on my own. Even shows basic construction and technique for building drills for the ram rod channel for use with a brace and why one might want to use a brace over other tools.

As far as some kits go, I priced out a kit from Track of the Wolf... To have them do all the work that I didn't think I could do was above $2000 for a percussion lock rifle. That makes a Kibler look like a bargain as it was basically the same amount of work completed.

As a first time builder….unless you possess the skills and tools necessary to fabricate wooden musical instruments….

Here’s a list of rifle building tasks you might wanna hire out;

Selecting the complete and correct parts list for gun style
Cutting out and rough shaping your gunstock
Cutting your barrel channel to fit the barrel you will use
Drilling a straight ramrod hole for 13-16 inches in figured wood
Fitting a breech plug
Cutting several precise clean dovetails for sites barrel lugs
(Barrel rib install and thimbles if gun style calls for it)
Locate lock to barrel
Locate lock screw placement
Locate trigger fin to sear tang
Locate touch hole
And still you will need to be proficient at drilling precisely located holes in both wood and metal at the correct angles and thread or tap as needed.

The first time builder can inlet the patchbox and stain and finish the wood and metal to his taste

A Kibler kit is a bargain.

 

[Ben McCormick]

Wow.

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE OUTSTANDING TIPS AND INFORMATION.

To be completely honest, I have purposely not responded because I did not want the feedback to stop.

I have certainly not left the campfire and have, in the very least, gained much much more interest in this new venture.

No offense taken to anything. Very open to suggestions have no problems with you more experienced/wiser hunters and shooters trying to put me on the right track.

I really appreciate the straight forwardness and absolutely honesty.


I knew doing a build would be a lot of work but not this much--definitely gonna start with a kit first. As to a pistol or a kibler, don't know yet.


Please don't let this stop the feedback. I'm all ears.

Keep it coming.


Thank you all once again.
Ben

 

[Ben McCormick]

Same answers as on ALR forum. Without trying to offend, it seems you want to design your own rifle, which should be slim but of a large caliber, perhaps stocked in this or that, with brass furniture, and shoot a bullet. And you have no well-formed ideas or in depth knowledge of originals, so are asking around.

Note the responses fall into several categories but the most common category is “buy a well-designed kit that’s easy to assemble and is an established outstanding performer.”

I’m guessing you read gun magazines and are convinced that muzzle energy and downrange energy are key to killing deer and elk, and thus leads you to want a bullet-shooting barrel. You may believe that those gun writers know more than old boys who have killed a lot of big game with muzzleloaders and round ball.

You’ll continue to get various suggestions, but it’s unlikely you have the experience to design a nice longrifle from scratch at this point. With your current starting point, nobody can advise you well on this barrel or that, this lock or that. Obviously many locks and barrels work well.

I'd have to say that you pretty well hit the nail dead center on the head there.

I think I am leaning more towards round balls now vs conicals.

As always I appreciate the honesty. I may still be a pup but I won't get offended like the rest of my snowflake generation.


Most of my big grand ideas have changed since reading through these responses.


Some of these ideas about my imaginary platform were dumb (and I'll readily admit that), but hey I had to start somewhere.



I guess I was wondering if that platform would all jive together before I got started with a build......but I'll definitely start with a kit first.


Thank you,
Ben