Burnt patches

[Sparkitoff]

I’ve been tweeting a percussion rifle with the help of the members here and I appreciate that. I’ve been changing one thing at a time and finally got groups at 50 yards, although 3-4 inch groups (5 shots). First I noticed the store bought CVA patches that say .015 are loose. Measured they are .009. Then I tried Ox-yoke .015. Also loose, they measured .011. I could not find a single one of these patches downrange. Switched to blue stripe pillow tick from Wal Mart that measured.019. Good fit. These patches are where the groups came from with .490 ball, 80 gr T7 FFFg. These patches are burnt and shredded. One even smoldered on the range and we had to cease fire so I could stomp it out. I tried Ox-yoke wads and saw no difference in group size but could not find the patch to assess. The patches were wiped on one side with SPG. I am seeking opinions regarding keeping the patches from burning. I have cut 3/16 cork wads lubed with olive oil and beeswax. I have fresh pillow tick patches cut round with thorough soaking of melted SPG and square cut soaked with beeswax, olive oil and T/C lube mix. I am not opposed to cut-at-muzzle and may try that with some kind of lube. Please, help me save these patches and tighten those groups. This is a percussion rifle that was pre owned and has a few hundred rounds through it.

 

[Phil Coffins]

You may find that 2fg or equivalent will help reduce damage to the patch. Also try a patch with a wetter lube, straight olive oil rather then mixed with wax. I've tried SPG on patches and gave up on that but it's great stuff on a grooved bullet. After 50 some years of black powder use I still prefer spit for my match loads. Won two turkeys this fall!😀

 

[hanshi]

Patches thick and strong enough to make a tight seating load - but one that can still be seated with the underbarrel rod - helps with patches that get burned. Very snug loads also allow shooting without swabbing the bore while maintaining accuracy. The tight prb pushes the previous shots fouling down so only the fouling from one shot is ever present.

These loads prevent hot gas escaping around the prb which is the way the burns occur. I use either .020" mattress ticking or, my favorite, .022" cotton canvas duck. I lube with mink oil - a paste - for hunting and Hoppes #9 BP Lube at the range. An over powder wad of some kind also helps with "blow by".

 

[Zonie]

SPG is made to lubricate lead bullets. It is not very good as a patch lube, even when it is mixed with some kind of vegetable oil so it doesn't surprise me when I hear it doesn't do much to keep patches from catching on fire.

T7, Triple 7 or Triple Se7en (same stuff) is known for burning patches.
It appearently generates a LOT of heat when it ignites.

You might want to try making a patch lube with a mixture of "97% rubbing alcohol", Murphy's Oil Soap and Olive oil and applying it with just enough to dampen the patch before loading.

 

[Richard Allen]

From your description it seems that your patches are deteriorated, not thick enough, not 100% cotton or linen, or they are not thoroughly saturated with lube.

Order Dutch Schultz's accuracy system and learn how to accurately measure the compressed thickness of your patches and how to determine what thickness patch your rifle likes.

While you're waiting for Dutch's package, get yourself a micrometer if you don't already have one, and learn how to use it.

You will not be disappointed with Dutch's accuracy system if you will follow his instructions.

 

[coloradoclyde]

A rusty pitted barrel will also cause burn through....as the patch tears and shreds traveling down the barrel it is easily ignited....Lube or no lube.

Another thing is making sure to wash the sizing out of the pillow ticking.

 

[S.Kenton]

Yep as Clyde said, always wash your store bought pillow ticking before use. Lube the ticking thouroghly with olive oil, press excess out. If your not using goex brand powder, I'd switch to it...substitute powders burn hotter and can burn up patches. If your patches look ripped or shredded, you may wanna try and hand lap the inside of the bore with valve grinding compound, gritty tooth paste, 0000 steel wool with wd40 also works. You could also simply put a few hundred rounds down range and see if it comes out if it. Sometimes simply shooting it dulls the sharp edges of the rifling....if that's actually the cause of your torn patches...rust can also be a culprit.

 

[Don Steele]

80 gns of Triple 7 is a good load for a caplock with PRB.
Commercial pre-lubed patches are a crapshoot. No way to know how old they are, and you have already found out the measurements they have on the package aren't useful. They typically use a NON-compressed measurement on the label.
There are some good pre-lubed products out there..one of my buddies only uses that sort of patch and consistently shoots excellent scores, including a couple of Gold medals at Friendship.
I've used a LOT of "Blue-Stripe Ticking type material" from Wal-Mart. I've noticed however that it definitely begins to FAIL as I increase powder charge. I normally shoot 45 gns or so of 3f Goex out of my 40 cal. rifle at 25-50 yd targets. Wal-MArt patch material is just fine for that. Working up a better load for 100 yd competition, I increased the powder charge to 65-70 gns and found my Wal-Mart patches were shredding. I'm wondering if your 80 gn charge of Triple 7 is doing the same thing.??
For stiffer powder charges, I've discovered a product at JoAnn fabrics labelled: "BRND 40 Drill" that works much better. Also, their 10 oz. Denim is a real solid choice if you want a TIGHT combination.
Oh yea...and Get in touch with Dutch. :hatsoff:

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Dutch Schoultz will tell you about how to make patches for your rifle gun. They willn't burn and will make the piece shoot true.

 

[timothy prouty]

Have you try a495ball and try Cisco as lube

 

[Dr5x]

It is not so important how old the pre lubed patches are but how thick they are when crushed between ball and bore. It is also important how lubricated they are. Too slick and the patched ball is gone before the powder has done its thing., Too thin and you will get burned patches from the blow by of the powder burn and also shredding if not the burn.
If the pre lubed patches are doing good work for you then rejoice and stick with it.
I found that figuring what exactly your rifle wants in patch thickness and go buy 9 or 10 yards of that material. When you learn how slick your rifle wants the patch to be, prepare a years patching in advance of that degree of lubrication and you won't have to think about patching till you need to prepare another year's supply storing the rolled up strips in those orange prescription bottles.

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Happy is the man who uses 9 or 10 yards of patch material in a year!

What Dutch says is spot on. I only stray from his advice here on matters of "too much lube".

I use a rather large plug of deer tallow between powder and patch. This does an excellent job of preserving the patch. You can also use cream o wheat - about 1/8 - 1/4 inch on top of the powder.

 

[Dr5x]

You stray from Dutch's suggestions with a lug of deer tallow between powder and ball to preserve the patch. You also suggest using cream of Wheat for the ame purpose.
Why are you so interested in "preserving the patch"?
Do you reuse them?. If the patch is the right thickness it will survive what must be a terrible experience with only some black schmutz added to its beauty.
Being a big spender I use patches only once as I wouldn't want it to have to go through that activity a second time.
That deer tallow must have your barrel dripping with grease..
Waay back in my personal olden days I was mis guidedly directed to use Crisco as a patch lube, After four or five shots i and the entire neighborhood smelled like a fry cook.


Dutch

 

[Sparkitoff]

I've purchased Dutch's system and read it. I will re-read everything yet again before the next range trip. I am getting the necessary accessories in order so I can begin the process of discovery.
Thank you all.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I meant no offense Dutch.

By preserving patches I only meant that they need to survive the trip down & out the bore in order to have any accuracy. If patches are shredded you likely are not seeing the full accuracy potential.

As for the barrel being greasy and smelling like a fry-cook: I am sure you would not be satisfied with my method. But it has been working for me.

I probably should have expanded on my thoughts a bit. By putting something over the powder like cream o wheat if you notice a big improvement in accuracy you now know the problem is likely blowby. If you don't like putzing with COW between powder & ball just figure out other ways to eliminate blowby.

 

[Dr5x]

You minimize or rather eliminate blow-by by using patching that is the proper thickness for your rifle.
Cream or wheat, Wads , Deer tow whatever is an end run. If it works for you as you say it does, stick with it.

The central core of my system is based on getting your patching precisely right and getting amazing accuracy as a result.
People get all upset by burned or shredded patch material. None of this should happen if you get the patching to the point where it performs a complete seal around the ball.
But what sends my hair on end is the lengths people will go to avoid getting their patching correctly selected and used.

However,
My System is NOT the only way to achieve accuracy. It is a way for folks who haven't had any luck with other methods.
Having to add all those other things will, in many cases give satisfaction but it's not anything traditional.

I'm being a pain in the butt = forgive me.

Dutch Schoultz

 

[ohio ramrod]

I have found that an over powder wad helps reduce burned patches by simply placing a barier between the powder and the patch. Try just putting a folded over patch in before the patched ball and see if that helps. :idunno:

 

[CTShooter]

I don't use Dutch's system, but 110% agree, a properly lubed and sized patch isn't going to burn and shred if the gun barrel is respectable shape.

It tends to be pretty accurate too...

 

[Dr5x]

THANK YOU,
PEOPLE SPEND SO MUCH TIME MAKING END RUNS AROUND THE IDEAL OF A WELL FITTING PATCH. DEER TALLOW WAS A NEW ONE. CREAM OF WHEART, CORN MEAL, WADS MADE FROM A VARIETY OF MATERIALS INCLUDING WASP NESTS AND AUTUMN LEAVES.. GETTING THE PATCH RIGH ONCE AND FOR ALL AND ALL THAT EXTRA EFFORT DIES AWAY.

YOU DON'T NEED TO USE MY SYSTEM BUT IF YOU MIGHT BE CURIOUS ABOUT IT I"LL END YOU A FREE COPY IF YOU'LL EMAIL ME AT
[email protected]

DUTCH SCHOULTZDUTCH SCHOULTZ

 

[SDSmlf]

Folks, those without Dutch's 'system', suggest you take him up on the offer of a free copy. From my practical side, no particular item in Dutch's system is earthshaking, however, collectively, one would spend years, not to mention pounds of lead and powder to figure out. If his system doesn't help, you are out nothing but some time. If it works, you may consider sending him a check. I know his system helped me.

dave