C&B revolver hunting?

[paulvallandigham]

First: I just got off the phone talking to a technical advisor at Sturm,Ruger, &C0., who assured me that Ruger at no time has ever said that using 30 grains of 4Fg powder in their ROA revolvers is SAFE, much less recommended. He then referred me to the on-line manual still availlable for those revolvers.
http://www.ruger.com/products/_manuals/oldArmy.pdf

On page 10 they discuss ammunition and recommend a beginning load of 20 GRAINS of FFFg- Not 4Fg powder in the revolver, with a filler used in front of the powder up to the base of the ball.

Now, the weakness in that revolver cylinder is NOT from the steel used, the heat treatment, and its certainly not the thickness, or "THINNESS" of the chamber walls in the Ruger Old Army. The Weakness comes from the location of the Cylinder Bolt NOTCH that locks the cylinder in place while a chamber is fired.

Those notches are DEEP- even in the heavily built Ruger revolvers. That means that there is NOT MUCH metal between the bottom of the notch, and the interior wall of each chamber. AND, those notches are cut where the chamber/cylinder walls are also the thinnest. ( NOTE: Modern Magnum revolvers are now being made- both Single Action and Double Action revolvers-- with "Off-set" cylinder bolt notches and corresponding off-set cylinder bolts.]

Even in modern cartridge revolvers I have seen dimples where the cylinder wall is a few thousandths of an inch from the bolt notch on the outside of the chambers. This, after the pressure of the cartridge is also contained in a modern Brass casing, with thick web at the base of the casing, close to where that cylinder bolt notch. That brass is rated, itself, to withstand about 55,000 PSI.

In a Cap and ball revolver, where you have no brass casing helping to contain pressure, all that pressure is pushing out against the cylinder wall, and against that cylinder bolt notch.

If a chamber is going to blow, its going to blow at that notch first. That notch is invariably located right under the Top-Strap of the frame of the revolver, which is why we see those top straps broken( at the back end of the frame, where the top strap joins the recoil shield around the hammer, and cylinder) and turned upward when one of these cylinders fails.

For those uninformed, The capability of any revolver, including the massive ROA, to withstand pressures is MUCH different than that of any percussion RIFLE barrel. What someone could get away firing in his Hawken style rifle is much different than what will happen in a revolver, for the reasons explained above. The worse thing that will happen with a percussion rifle, such as a T/C, is that the pressure will eventually strip the threads, and blow the Nipple out of the bolster.

In revolvers, the thin "wall?" between the bottom of the cylinder bolt notch will give way long before the nipple threads in each chamber will fail. The threads have more metal to them, and there are more threads than that one thin shim of metal at the bottom of the bolt notch.

I am done on this. Do what you want, but don't ever say you weren't warned. Your posting this on this forum has just become the best defense for any Insurance Company, when your family tries to sue a gun manufacturer over your untimely death, or loss of limb, or eyesight.

Have a better day. :thumbsup:

 

[Jason Lewis]

the online manual for the ruger also says that any granulation could be used and suggests a starting accuracy load of 20grn 3F. i doesn't expressly say anywhere in the manual to not use 4F.

 

[Bearbait2]

Mr. medic302,
That's what I remember reading but it was a long time ago. Thank you.
Best Wishes

 

[DanChamberlain]

20 grains is a bit lighter than the aforementioned 4f load. But I digress.

It isn't the first "strenuous" shot that causes a muzzleloading gun to fail generally. It's a cumulative thing. Metal fatigue is a real deal when loads exceed a certain level of energy. It may never fail. It may fail on the next shot. Or, it may fail 10 years from now when someone's grandchild is shooting grandpa's old Ruger.

These are just random thoughts.

And while I'm on the "random" thought kick, this quote:

"The farthest was a hail-mary shot on the deer I hit high on.. this shot was Waaaaaay out there and the ball still hit near the last rib and traveled forward through both lungs, broke a rib and stopped under the hide."

Could have just as easily been a gut shot.

Dan

 

[Kentucky45]

I went through a phase of getting creeped out sitting in the National Forest, in the dark, waiting for day break, with one shot in my muzzle loader. I pictured WOOLEY BOOGERS behind every tree in the dark!!

That's funny. But the truth is we've all heard something in the dark that we weren't sure about. Especially when hunting low to the ground. I walked into some pretty heavy stuff and sat down against a tree on a good deer trail about 5:00am one morning. Something close began moving around about 30 minutes later, just as I began to dose off, and I only had my one shot muzzle loader. It kept me awake. At first light I saw a 75lb pig rooting in the leaves 25 yards away. He hadn't made a sound. Pork Chops! I carried my 44 BP revolver and rifle after that. In Texas during bow and special muzzle loader season, we can't carry a revolver of any kind unless concealed and with a license. Regular gun season we can carry open. But in special muzzle loader season we can openly carry a muzzleloading pistol. Two shots are better than one. I killed a 30lb pig and an armadillo with my 44 revolver. Nothing with my ML pistol "yet".

 

[jaw69]

What I am thinking about Is what load did the org. 1858 or 1860 get loaded with.They had inferior metal yet many examples are around to this day.This I found on This subject.


The February 1975 issue of the American Rifleman has an interesting article on what loads were used in Civil War .36 and .44-caliber paper cartridges for Colt revolvers.
No mention is made of Remington or other cap and ball revolver charges but they were likely identical or nearly so.
No granulation (FFG or FFFG) is noted in the article. Round balls were not used in paper cartridges, but were loaded loosely.
There was a surprising disparity in bullet weights and powder charges in paper combustible cartridges for the Colts, according to the article.

Conical bullets for the Colt M1860 Army .44-caliber revolver ranged from 207 grs. to 260 grs. Powder charges ranged from 17 to 36 grains of black powder.
Conical bullets for the Colt .36 Navy ranged from 139 to 155 grs. Charges ranged from 12 to 21 grains.
Nearly all of these variations are found in prepared, paper cartridges manufactured by private contractors. It appears that U.S. government arsenals made few paper revolver cartridges, preferring to contract this task.
Union Army ordnance manuals of 1861 specify a load of 30 grs of powder with a .46-caliber, 216 gr. conical ball in Colt M1860 revolvers of .44-caliber.
The same manual specifies a .39-caliber conical bullet of 145 grs., over 17 grs. of powder, for the .36-caliber revolvers.
An official Confederate States publication specifies a 250 gr. conical bullet over 30 grs. of powder for the Colt M1860 revolver.
The Confederate specification for the Colt Navy is the same as the Union (.39 caliber conical of 145 grs. over 17 grs. powder).
In the 1860s an average load for the Colt M1860 .44 revolver was 25 grs. of powder with a 146 gr. (about 460" diameter) round ball or a conical bullet of about 230 grs.
The average load for the Colt Navy was 15 grs. of powder with an 81 gr. (about .380" diameter) round ball or a conical bullet of about 146 grs.
Old loadings will occasionally list a 218 gr. conical bullet with a 40 to 50 gr. powder charge. This is intended for the Colt Model 1847 Walker or the later Dragoons, which have a larger capacity than the Colt M1860 .44 revolver.
Of great interest in this article is the apparent dissection of original paper cartridges and the weighing of their powder charge and conical ball weight.
The results follow:

COLT ARMY .44
Hazard Powder Co. - 211 gr. conical / 36 grs. powder
Bartholow's - 260 gr. conical / 19 grs. powder
Johnston & Dow - 242 gr. conical / 35 grs. powder
Unknown - 257 gr. conical / 17 grs. powder
Unknown - 207 gr. conical / 22 grs. powder
Hotchkiss - 207 gr. conical / 22 grs. powder

COLT NAVY .36
Hazard Powder Co. - 141 gr. conical / 21 grs. powder
Bartholow's - 139 gr. conical / 14 grs. powder
Johnston & Dow - 150 gr. conical / 17 grs. powder
Unknown - 155 gr. conical / 12 grs. powder
Unknown - 149 gr. conical / 13 grs. powder

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Thanks for the info.

What did the conicals look like then? Is there a modern version that's close?

 

[jaw69]

Try this site for pictures of orgionals http://www.virginiarelics.com/civil_war_bullets.htm

 

[crockett]

Let's get to the question at hand, hunting with a C & B revolver. The state laws of course have to be checked. I carry a Navy 36 "for rabbits" to some extent but in truth the National Forest I hunt is open to a lot of non-hunters and sometimes I just don't feel that safe going back to my car at night- talk about being an easy mark. So.... I actually carry the revolver for self defense. Recently my home state changed the rules- if you have a concealed weapons permit you can carry that at any time- archery, muzzle loading, etc- a good law IMHO.
In any event, I like shooting percussion revolvers but I'm not sure how practical they are for hunting. For hunting, maybe a single shot, big bore- some of the mountain men used such pistols at point blank range (on horseback) to kill buffalo. The other benefit of the single shot is you can use a CO2 dispenser at day's end to unload it.

 

[jaw69]

I would think with 200 to 275 ft/lbs depending on load would be plenty for small game up to coyote with in 50 yards Consult your state laws. I would not feel underarmed with a 44. A 36 I feel is margnal on man Targets with only 125 ft/lbs or so at the muzzle with max load. But something is better than nothing.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Hickock killed a man at 75 yds with his 51 Navy.

He kept using his 51 even after cartridge guns came out.

 

[jaw69]

I agree a 36 will kill and has but a 44 is better at stopping power and carries more energy farther That little 36 at 75 yard cant have over 50 ft/lbs left At the muzzle it is like a 22 but looses energy faster. it is not known what gun he used but his 44 Walker is a likly canidate Thats what I would bring to a planed gun fight.

 

[jaw69]

I have been doing some reading and the Killin power of the 36 seems out of wack for its size. It was and is a dandy man stopper.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Eye witnesses claim he used one of the 51's he carried.

However, we know know how stories can change over the years.

Persoanlly, I would think he'd use the 51 in a gun fight. The Walker is pretty clunky.

I saw someone on TV trying to duplicate his 75 yd shot with a 51 and couldn't do it, but he wasn't Wild Bill. :wink:

 

[jaw69]

After doing some reading i agree the 36 Navy he carried every day was most likely the gun he use The killing power of the 36 was nothing to laugh at. I have corrected my own thinking Now i must own one to hunt with. :hatsoff:

 

[BrownBear]

Once upon a time (yeah, on a planet far away) I dinked around with loading .360 RB's into 38 Special pistol cases for an indoor gallery load for pistol practice. I'd done it with .430 RBs and 44 Special cases and had my range pretty well tuned in with a homemade bullet trap, etc. Not a single issue with the 44 Special loads or my bullet trap.

Not having anything else for reference, I loaded the 38's with 1 grain of Bullseye just like I was doing with the 44 Special loads.

First shot sounded the same and recoil was even less, if possible. Went ahead and shot the other 5 rounds.

Went downrange to retrieve the target and noticed white powder on the floor behind the trap.

Investigation revealed 6 ragged holes in the back of the trap. And six holes in the sheetrock wall behind it. And 6 holes in the sheetrock on the back side of the wall. And 6 dents in the wall across the next room and a scattering of mushed up RBs on the floor.

Fortunately my wife was traveling. I got all three walls repaired and repainted. I spilled a little paint in the shop to "explain" the new paint smell.

I built and tested another bullet trap (outdoors of course), and had it all installed before She Who Rules returned.

Moral of story: Yeah, I believe the heck out of stories about the 36 caliber revolvers being good man killers.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Here's that gun fight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Bill_Hickok_–_Davis_Tutt_shootout

 

[paulvallandigham]

The Hickok is the only know "Walk down" gunfight recorded in western history. It happened in Springfield, MO, which most of us would hardly consider a " western town". Its been very well documented from the first, and there is NO basis to believe that Hickok used anything other than his 1851 Navy Colt .36 revolver.

He was known to carry them in a sash around his waist, and every morning he would take his two revolvers out to the edge of town to a ravine, where he would fire off the loaded chambers in both gun, as his daily Practice. Back at his room, he would clean, oil, and reload his revolvers before venturing out in the evening to gamble.

To believe he used something else would run contrary to everything known about the shooting, and about Hickok.

History: The man he killed had won a family heirloom pocket watch from hickok in a poker game, and Hickok believed the man had cheated him. He swore he would get it back. The man made fun of beating Hickok, and challenges were exchanged. There is NO information from that day indicating that either man was inebriated, or anything but sober. Unlike many gunfights, this One DID take place in a public street during DAYLIGHT. The man killed fired the first shot, and missed. Kickok took careful aim, and put his .36 cal. ball through the man's heart.

Under the circumstances, the shooting was considered self defense- and would be considered such today. The shooting took place in front of several eyewitnesses, and not all of them were friends of Wild Bill. I don't believe that history is served by wild speculation when you have no evidence to back up any claim.

If you want to learn more about gunfights, and gunfighters, let me recommend you read Elmer Keith's, " Sixguns", and Col. Charles Askin's, " Gunfighters". Keith discusses gunfights and gunfighters in the Northwest, where he grew up in Oregon, Idaho, and Montana at the turn of the last century. Askin discusses the famous Texas gunfighters, from the early days of the Republic of Texas, through the beginning of the 20th century.

 

[LaBonte]

The Hickok is the only know "Walk down" gunfight recorded in western history

Actually there is at least one other - it was in Quartsite Az and there is even a photo of it taken while it was happening.

The OK Corral could also be considered in the same vein - while not exactly a "walk down" the two groups did face each other down before the fight commenced.....

He was known to carry them in a sash around his waist

This is one of those possible myths promulgated by eastern writers of the time.
Hickok's still extant 51 revolvers have holsters that went with them and in at least one earlier photo he is wearing a 60 Army in a holster. The only other photo of him wearing pistols are his 51's and they have the barrels stuck in a leather belt and it's obviously a staged studio image.
Those who have tried packing a pair of 51's in a sash (including many well known pistoleros such as the late Col Cooper and Phil SPangenberger) find it clumsy at best and trying to draw from them can be a problem since they tend to snag. With someone as experienced and as careful about his shooting irons as Hickok was I (and many others who have studeied the subject) find it doubtful he would have carried his guns in such a fashion.
On the other hand he may very well have worn them holstered on a leather belt and than had a sash wrapped over the top - both for looks as well as the sash, he was a known dandy, would then have helped "lock" the Slim Jim style holsters he used into place giving one a somewhat better draw.

Best info on Hickok are the books by James G Rosa who has written extensively on the man.

 

[richard123]

I got caught up in cap-n-ball revolvers when I was a kid. I always wanted to hunt with pistols but at 16 I could only own those that were fueled with BP or pyrodex. Traded my 1st revolver (1851 Pietta Navy Colt) for a Navy Arms Rogers and Spencer and terrorized small game in the Allegheny foothills of NW PA in the early 80's. I took everything from chipmunks to porcupines with that gun. At 19 I joined the service and ended up giving that revolver away. 25 years later I wanted to relive some of my youth, therefore I purchased another Rogers and Spencer- this one is a Euroarms version. Though I have owned several other BP revolvers (to include '58 Remmies, a ROA and various Uberti and Pietta Colts) my favorite is still the R&S. Never had to tweak the sights and with 35 grains of Pyro P or Goex 3F, .45 wonder wad, and a .454 roundball, it is plenty capable of taking small and medium sized varmints out to 40 yards. And trust me, I'm no Wyatt Earp neither.