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Calculating bore volume

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Paulvallandigham advocates maximum charges of BP as 11.5 grains per cubic inch of bore volume. I can see that, but wonder how to calculate bore volume. To do it right you'd have to allow for over all bore diameter, the hights of the lands, width of lands and grooves, rate of twist and other factors. Is there a convenient way to calculate rough bore volume?
 
Volume of a cylinder is pi times the square of the radius times the height.

V=pi X (r)2 X h
 
KV
I think the way to do it is to take the middle of the bore/groove diameter. For a 50 cal with .010 deep grooves, you'd use a bore diameter of .510" for the calculation,if it makes all that much difference, which I doubt. I think I'd just go with the nominal bore diameter.
 
Sure you could go to those extremes if you know the number of grooves and the width of them.
With the width and radius you can calculate the radians and convert that to a percentage.......
but, why?

If this were something that had to be known to the thousandths of a cubic inch it would be important but in this case the volume is just used as an indicator for a maximum effective load.

Nothing says the answer can't be exceeded and indeed, many do, figuring the slight loss of efficiency is worth the gain in velocity.

That said, just use the bore diameter to calculate the radius. Square the radius and multiply the answer by 3.1416. Take this answer and multiply it times the length of the bore from the breech plug to the muzzle and you will have the necessary volume to multiply times 11.5. :grin:

Happy calculating. :)
 
Sir: You misquote my writings, and do me a great disservice. I have merely provided the membership on this forum with Charlie Davenport's formula for determining the MAXIMUM EFFICIENT LOAD for a given bore diameter and barrel length.

I have never said that you can't put more powder in your gun and shoot it.

I have never claimed that putting more powder in the barrel will not result in greater Muzzle Velocity.

Neither assertion would be true- and I know those assertions are not true.

What Davenport was trying to tell Shooters was that the most accurate loads for a gun, at the lowest pressures( so as to preserve stocks, nipples, and other gun parts) can be determined by using his formula, as a maximum, and then searching for a load near it- he recommended 10% less for percussion rifles, but said Flintlocks could use the Max. efficient load because of the vent's reduction of both chamber pressure and Muzzle velocity-- that locates the " Sweet spot".

A Sweet Spot is that velocity that allows the barrels vibrations- or harmonics- to provide the most consistency for that particular gun, as shown by the smallest groups on targets.

Today, we can use Chronographs to find that " Sweet Spot " much faster, and once known, can change components, powders, lubes, etc. to fine tune the sweet spot accuracy even more- or at least we think we can! :rotf:

The plain truth is Charlie was correct: A Barrel burns 11.5 grains of black powder per cubic inch of bore, efficiently.

Because BP produces gas and expands as the powder burns in the barrel, unlike Smokeless powder, which burns much more rapidly, and creates much higher chamber pressures almost instantly, Black Powder pressures are distributed down the barrel, after the ball or conical already is moving forward.

You can delay the movement of the projectile by increasing its weight/ bore diameter, or by using fillers, and OP wads to hold back the gas pressures and add Mass that the gas has to push down the barrel in addition to the ball or bullet.

But the affect on barrel harmonics is unpredictable doing this, and you see erratic velocities on the chronograph indicating that something more is going on in your barrel than just pushing a standard size ball or bullet out the barrel!

Charlie- like most target shooters- was trying to eliminate the most UNKNOWN factors to get nice small groups. He was not interested in sending a single projectile down range that, on a good day, Might hit some game animal and deliver a knock out blow.

If you want to test the strength of your barrel, breech plug, nipple, nipple threads, clean out screw and its threads, BE MY GUEST!

If you want to see what it takes to blow your barrel up, you are on your own! I do not advocate doing these things. But, I have done them when I didn't know better, and I was very young. :redface: :haha: :nono:

So, please read my posts carefully. I usually try to spend a lot of time choosing the language I use when writing, so that I convey EXACTLY the information I am trying to pass on. That is the reason my posts tend to be longer than others.

There is grace in brevity, when the time is correct, but brevity comes up "short" for complete understanding. :hmm: :thumbsup:
 
Why can't you fill it up with water, then dump it out in a measuring cup. Weigh it, convert that it to some other it. There's got to be a easy way.
 
Ok so paulvallandigham using this formula what would be my load in a .62 cal with a 32" barrel.
 
Paul (or anyone else who knows), does the formula presume the use of a certain Grade and Granulation of powder? Thanks.

P.S.: Doesn't "sweet spot" also refer to a location on the barrel of some importance? I have a head cold, so my brain is stuffed with sinus pressure and the neurons aren't quite firng correctly this evening.
 
Thanks to several other members for posting the formula in math terms. That is the simple way to understand this.

If you remember only a few math and geometry formula, the formula for determining area of a circle is PI time Radius Squared. I haven't had any math in more than 40 years but even I can't forget that "Pi" is 3.1416 for most purposes. And, how can you forget that the radius of a circle is 1/2 its diameter? ( R= D/2. )

If you want a shorter and faster method of doing this math, I have reduced the equation to a number for all the standard calibers, from .32 to .75. With that number, I simply mulitple times the length of the barrel I am given, and give the correspondent the formula answer for that caliber and barrel length.

I do not bother to calculate both bore diameter and groove diameter, and subtract the width of the lands, etc. to get the EXACT amount for each gun. If you did, you would generally find the difference is less than 3 grains of powder.

Use the nominal bore diameter to determine the Max. Efficient Powder charge for a given caliber and given barrel length. I also don't do fractions of an inch when measuring barrels, nor do I run a thin ramrod down the barrel so I can include the powder chamber in the Nock Style rifles. I use the outside measurement of the barrel. You are welcome to make all those adjustments, if your idea of fun is to stay up nights working with calculators.

Even a .75 smoothbore barrel shows a difference of only 5 grains of powder per inch! With that large caliber bore, 5 grains difference, one way or another, is not going to have much effect on velocity. I would not want to shoot anywhere near the Max. Efficient Load in a .75 cal, 44 inch barrel( 223.5 grains!)(( Obviously, there are other factors at play with these very large bore barrels that control choice of powder charges other than burning Max. efficient Powder charges for a given barrel length. Weight limitations for certain match shooting, as well as recoil often determine what diameter barrel one puts on a rifle. ))

The shortest way to learn what a given max. eff. powder charge is for your particular gun is to send me a PT, and I will send back the number. :wink: :thumbsup:
 
I asked about powder granulation, and because Black Powder has the same Chemical Composition, I was told the grnulation size does not make a difference on the volume of powder that can be burned.

As to a sweet spot, everything affects barrel harmonics! Round barrels with thin profiles then to be the " whippiest". Octagon barrels with large dimensions tend to be the least. But everything is relative, and if you put a huge powder charge, and bullet in an Octagon barrel, you are going to get some different harmonics.

I also am reminded, somehow, of the Bugs Bunny Cartoons where Elmer Fudd fires his shotgun with a bore obstruction in it. The Cartoons show the barrel bending back, and expanding in the middle like a pregnant snake, before something is spit out of the muzzle, and the muzzle then splits wide open and tears back towards Elmer, covering him, always, with soot. This is a comical exaggeration of what goes on in barrels when they fire large projectiles in front of heavy powder charges, but when you see time lapse photography of an actual barrel firing, its closer to the truth than most of us would like to think about. :hmm:
 
paulvallandigham said:
I also am reminded, somehow, of the Bugs Bunny Cartoons where Elmer Fudd fires his shotgun with a bore obstruction in it.... This is a comical exaggeration of what goes on in barrels when they fire large projectiles in front of heavy powder charges, but when you see time lapse photography of an actual barrel firing, its closer to the truth than most of us would like to think about. :hmm:

I always suspected Elmer was a firearms genius! Thanks for confirming that!
 
Sir: You misquote my writings, and do me a great disservice. I have merely provided the membership on this forum with Charlie Davenport's formula for determining the MAXIMUM EFFICIENT LOAD for a given bore diameter and barrel length.

I have never said that you can't put more powder in your gun and shoot it.

I have never claimed that putting more powder in the barrel will not result in greater Muzzle Velocity.

I can't find any where in the thread where Kansas Volunteer said any of those things. :confused:
 
Kansas Volunteer said:
Paulvallandigham advocates maximum charges of BP as 11.5 grains per cubic inch of bore volume. I can see that, but wonder how to calculate bore volume. To do it right you'd have to allow for over all bore diameter, the hights of the lands, width of lands and grooves, rate of twist and other factors. Is there a convenient way to calculate rough bore volume?

I consider all this just window dressing.
In medium calibers, 54 to 45 usually 1/2 ball weight of FFFG powder is the point where velocity starts to fall off in terms of velocity gain for grain of charge weight increase.
HOWEVER, some rifles like more powder than they will burn by the bore capacity formula.
Its what the BARREL likes. Not what the owner wants or thinks he needs.
Smaller bores like 32-40 often need a lot more than 1/2 ball weight and larger bores 62 and over often give good velocity performance with 1/3 ball weight since the heavy ball uses the powder more efficiently.
Find what the barrel likes and use it. Quit worrying about the displacement of the bore.


Dan
 
Thanks Dan for the info on charge to ball weight ratios, that will come in handy.

Thanks to marmotslayer for covering my 6, I didn't think I'd said all those things.

Thanks, to those who provided the formula for determining the volume of a cylinder. I was already onto that, but still would like to know how to calculalte volume allowing for the size of the lands and rate of twist. I'm more cuious now than ever how much difference in bore volume that would make.

Thanks Paul for all your very precise answers.

Now I have some ideas of where to begin working up loads for my rifles, instead of just pouring some standard measure down the bore
 
Back when, we all started out as Dan describes. We didn't have chronographs, we didn't have anyone to help us, who knew anything, and we didn't have any formulas to consider. At most we had wive's tales, like " Put a ball from your gun in the palm of your hand and cover it with powder. That will be the right load for that gun!" There were, and still are, all kinds of " rules of thumb" still held with religious devotion by folks on the firing lines. If you shoot enough, and go to enough different sites, you will meet some of them. Read the info in the back of the Dixie Gun Works Catalog, in load development. Some of what Dan said above appears there, too.

The first rule of thumb I found " Busted" was the one about using FFg in guns that are .50 caliber or higher. A friend bought a .62 Caliber Rifle from another member of the club, and he exhausted a can of FFg trying to find a load that worked. He had done dozens of other guns, but this one simply would not group. --- Until he tried FFFg powder instead. I think the second group he fired put 3 consecutive shots in one hole not more than caliber size at 25 yds. He moved back to 50 yds, and the group was still one hole! He was amazed, and embarrassed, because he was one of the guys who was always telling new guys to use FFg powder in those .54 and larger guns. We laughed with him, and he even let us shoot some groups with the new gun. The gun consistently shot beautiful groups if you used FFFg powder. Go figure. I even traded him a can of FFFg I had for a can of his FFg that I needed, so he did not have to order more powder.

Best wishes. If you get stuck, send a PT. We can help, honestly, even if we don't always agree.
 
Trying not to re-invent wheel here----anybody already have the bore volume calculated for a .54 cal. Lyman GPR flinter??
thanks
 
What is the barrel length on your Lyman .54?

A 34 inch barrel has a max. efficient load of 94.8 grains( 95 grains)! A 28 inch barrel in .54 has a Max. Eff. Load of 74.7 grains. If yours is a different length, let me know and I can send you the information.
 
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