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Canoe gun?
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Russ T Frizzen
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LaBonte, it's the mis-use of the term or the creation of a term that gets me going. Like the use of the Hawken name for a number of cheap rifles that bear no resemblance to the real thing save for the fact that the ball comes out the muzzle when fired. A Hawken is just not a gun made in Spain or Italy or even New Hampshire. A Carolina gun or a Northwest trade gun is a definite thing and I'll bet that we both get the same image in our minds when we hear these terms.
When we hear the term "canoe gun" we both are seeing the same mental picture, too. Now, as an admitted curmudgeon, the term seems to really set me off--like a red flag to a bull. I wouldn't want one myself, 36" being about as short a barrel as I like on a smoothbore, but if someone else wants a short gun that's their business. It's not about quality, since the few I've seen are as well made as their full length brethren.
It's got to be the name. It is catchy and is probably a good marketing tool, but that may not be the only reason why it was chosen. I am not certain how many canoes there actually were out on the plains or in the mountains, but barrel length isn't all that big a problem in a canoe anyway. Lots of horses out that way if I remember rightly. And a shorter barrel is an aid to loading ahorseback. Given all the inadvertent ways that a barrel could wind having to be cut down, the idea could have seeds in pure coincidence. 150 years later, when reproducing these cut down guns and looking for a name to call them, you would want something short and sweet that sings of adventure and the Big Sky country. Cut down trade fusil or horseback musket just don't stir the imagination, do they? Canoe gun must have seemed like the answer to a prayer.
So, it probably is a marketing term--and one that has stood the test of time. I now think that it probably isn't as cynical a creation as I once did, and I want to offer sincere apologies to anyone who may have been stung by my use of that word. Dan
When we hear the term "canoe gun" we both are seeing the same mental picture, too. Now, as an admitted curmudgeon, the term seems to really set me off--like a red flag to a bull. I wouldn't want one myself, 36" being about as short a barrel as I like on a smoothbore, but if someone else wants a short gun that's their business. It's not about quality, since the few I've seen are as well made as their full length brethren.
It's got to be the name. It is catchy and is probably a good marketing tool, but that may not be the only reason why it was chosen. I am not certain how many canoes there actually were out on the plains or in the mountains, but barrel length isn't all that big a problem in a canoe anyway. Lots of horses out that way if I remember rightly. And a shorter barrel is an aid to loading ahorseback. Given all the inadvertent ways that a barrel could wind having to be cut down, the idea could have seeds in pure coincidence. 150 years later, when reproducing these cut down guns and looking for a name to call them, you would want something short and sweet that sings of adventure and the Big Sky country. Cut down trade fusil or horseback musket just don't stir the imagination, do they? Canoe gun must have seemed like the answer to a prayer.
So, it probably is a marketing term--and one that has stood the test of time. I now think that it probably isn't as cynical a creation as I once did, and I want to offer sincere apologies to anyone who may have been stung by my use of that word. Dan
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:bow:
You're sitting tall in the saddle for that post, Dan.
You're sitting tall in the saddle for that post, Dan.
Russ T Frizzen
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Thank you, my friend. I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out why it bugged me like it did. I mean, they're only words, for crying out loud. I do care about the H/C-P/C thing, but this seemed over the top. Buffalo Runner and Blanket Gun I understood. I've seen a number of both types here in New England--usually made from late 18th or early 19th century muskets. I'm talking about guns clearly modified in period, some crudely and some apparently professionally. I nearly bought a blanket type gun at the last Springfield gunshow I was at. It was a European musket converted to percussion and had the barrel bobbed to 14" and the butt cut off just after the comb began to rise. It's interesting to ponder as to what such guns were used for in this neck of the woods. Haven't found a canoe gun yet though--at least not a New England one!
Mike & Russ - I think we do agree more than not and in fact pretty close in our general likes and dislikes, except that I just don't let things like names bother me as much anymore - too many other stresses to let the little ones like this add up. (except for the misuse of the term possibles bag which just sets my teeth to aching :cursing: , but then I generally try to gently nudge folks to the proper terms if and when I enter that discussion :nono: .
As to gimmicks I don't like them either, but then again there were plenty around "back when" so I reckon they are PC as well...
Russ - on the Hawken name I used to get REAL upset back in the 1970's over what I considered disrespect to the originals, but not now - it's more that the name has been so overused by makers that for me the problem is that it causes confusion...is it the real McCoy? or is it a TC, CVA, ad infinitum???? I now think of them as Rocky Mtn Rifles which is how the originals were advertised anyway.
Tom Patton - I also agree with Mr. Kindig, and have never been shy about admitting when I'm wrong or find new info that proves or disproves one of our cherished "historical truths" as being in error. What I find offsetting in this particular discussion is that often there is too much emphasis on the "name" and also on whether they were factory produced, which seems to go hand in hand with the name argument - IMO both of these arguments distract from the actual history of the subject at hand.
I know I said I'd bow out - to end this here are some documented facts:
Fact 1: There is no evidence that the term canoe gun was ever used historically, still it is a well known marketing name and when anyone uses it we immediately know what is being talked about. Hopefully over time the purveyors may see fit to offer a more historically based name - i.e. Buffalo Runner of Blanket Gun would be more appropriate and still offer a "vision", but it's their business and their prerogative to make such a change.
Fact 2: Short barreled smoothbores existed - whether one likes them or not they can be irrefutably documented. Factory made short barreled guns were produced - there is some evidence for barrels produced at 24" via fur trade orders and lots of orders for 30" barrels. Home smithed guns were also made - a fairly large number of undoubtedly cut down guns of various types, but typically NW guns, exist in various collections such as the Museum of the Fur Trade - there is evidence for such cut down guns being used in both the 18th and 19th Century. In both cases short barreled smoothbores can be documented as being used at various times and places for different reasons - as always it's a matter of who, when, and where.
3) Yes pistols were used in the west for buffalo hunting, but off hand I can think of no reference to NDNz using them whereas there is a fair amount of primary documentation for them being used by those of Euro descent.
And Mike thank you for the compliment - I try my best........
As to gimmicks I don't like them either, but then again there were plenty around "back when" so I reckon they are PC as well...
Russ - on the Hawken name I used to get REAL upset back in the 1970's over what I considered disrespect to the originals, but not now - it's more that the name has been so overused by makers that for me the problem is that it causes confusion...is it the real McCoy? or is it a TC, CVA, ad infinitum???? I now think of them as Rocky Mtn Rifles which is how the originals were advertised anyway.
Tom Patton - I also agree with Mr. Kindig, and have never been shy about admitting when I'm wrong or find new info that proves or disproves one of our cherished "historical truths" as being in error. What I find offsetting in this particular discussion is that often there is too much emphasis on the "name" and also on whether they were factory produced, which seems to go hand in hand with the name argument - IMO both of these arguments distract from the actual history of the subject at hand.
I know I said I'd bow out - to end this here are some documented facts:
Fact 1: There is no evidence that the term canoe gun was ever used historically, still it is a well known marketing name and when anyone uses it we immediately know what is being talked about. Hopefully over time the purveyors may see fit to offer a more historically based name - i.e. Buffalo Runner of Blanket Gun would be more appropriate and still offer a "vision", but it's their business and their prerogative to make such a change.
Fact 2: Short barreled smoothbores existed - whether one likes them or not they can be irrefutably documented. Factory made short barreled guns were produced - there is some evidence for barrels produced at 24" via fur trade orders and lots of orders for 30" barrels. Home smithed guns were also made - a fairly large number of undoubtedly cut down guns of various types, but typically NW guns, exist in various collections such as the Museum of the Fur Trade - there is evidence for such cut down guns being used in both the 18th and 19th Century. In both cases short barreled smoothbores can be documented as being used at various times and places for different reasons - as always it's a matter of who, when, and where.
3) Yes pistols were used in the west for buffalo hunting, but off hand I can think of no reference to NDNz using them whereas there is a fair amount of primary documentation for them being used by those of Euro descent.
And Mike thank you for the compliment - I try my best........
Mike Brooks
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I can't disagree with any of the above post. Let's all have a group hug! :haha:
Russ T Frizzen
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Yup! Stay off the ridgeline and don't bunch up. And watch yer backtrail! :rotf:
The problem with bowing out of a thread is as soon as you type that you remember something else you wanted to say--at least I do. And for sure a real Hawken is a specific thing and the rest are just posers!
I have decided to see what I can find out about those cut down muskets that show up in this neighborhood from time to time. On the surface they seem out of place but they always had a good reason for doing things back in they day.
The problem with bowing out of a thread is as soon as you type that you remember something else you wanted to say--at least I do. And for sure a real Hawken is a specific thing and the rest are just posers!
I have decided to see what I can find out about those cut down muskets that show up in this neighborhood from time to time. On the surface they seem out of place but they always had a good reason for doing things back in they day.
hanshi
Cannon
I "think" they still say that, not sure. Anyway, an ounce of prevention........
Rod Lassey
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Can somebody give me the source for the order by Laidlaw at Ft. Pierre for the '2 and 3 foot' guns? I know I've read it elsewhere, but I can't figure out where---been looking, but haven't come up with where I've read it.
If you know where it is quoted, see what the footnote says about it---I'd like to look it up on the microfilm, and could use some idea what reel to look at. As fun as it may be, I don't want to run through a 6 foot tall, 3 foot wide, 2 1/2 foot deep cabinet full of microfilm reels looking for a single quote. Could take me the rest of my life that way. See if it can be narrowed down at all.
Thanks, Rod
If you know where it is quoted, see what the footnote says about it---I'd like to look it up on the microfilm, and could use some idea what reel to look at. As fun as it may be, I don't want to run through a 6 foot tall, 3 foot wide, 2 1/2 foot deep cabinet full of microfilm reels looking for a single quote. Could take me the rest of my life that way. See if it can be narrowed down at all.
Thanks, Rod
Rod - It's in the old UMO handbook (which I no longer have and didn't note the footnote) and was quoted by by Allen Chronister. In it he includes an order for goods by William Laidlaw of Fort Pierre Choteau dated Dec. 20, 1832. Among the list is this entry:
"Best Barnett guns 3 foot barrels and 110 Northwest guns with 2 and 3 foot barrels"
If you don't have it I'd contact Gene Hickman via the UMO website http://uppermissourioutfit.com/ or Allen at [email protected] and see if either could help........
"Best Barnett guns 3 foot barrels and 110 Northwest guns with 2 and 3 foot barrels"
If you don't have it I'd contact Gene Hickman via the UMO website http://uppermissourioutfit.com/ or Allen at [email protected] and see if either could help........
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I was looking in the book "of Sorts for Provincials" by Jim Mullins. This is anb excellent book with lots of photos of American weapons of the French and Indian War.
What is of interest in the book is that there are a couple of guns with short barrels. Of particular interst to this topic is the Non-Pattern Ordnance Carbine in the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation. The gun pictured on page 65 has a barrel length of 25 7/8" of caliber 0.77". The notes indicate that it is am a-
typical mix of sea service and Dutch parts. It was made for horseback use with a side mounted sling-bar. The sling swivels are missing. There is no provision for a front swivel. There is no front sight or bayonet lug and looks to be a cut down gun. It does have the original brass ramrod tip on the wooden rammer.
On page 89 there is a picture of and Officer's Fusil with a barrel length of 34" in caliber 0.67". This gun does have a front sight and seems to be pictured as it was made. Officer's guns were made as a custom order for the particular officer.
Also of note there is a fowler probably made for Roger Lewis with a barrel of 54". Not every gun was short.
Most of the guns pictured havve barrels of 41" to 46" length.
So, I think that the short barreled guns did exist. They are very rare.
One more gun on page 111. This is another one that is described as a carbine. The barrel length is 32" and the caliber is 0.68". It has the interesting feature of the side sling bar. The notes refer to it as a commercial carbine by Ludlum, c 1750. The photograph is credited to the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation.
The report from the Maryland assembly, dated April 13, 1762 indicates that "Firelocks, short muskets and Carbines" were all returned from "Coll Dagworthy's Company.
Enough rambling.
So, get the book "Of Sorts for Provincials" and look at the pictures for yourself.
What is of interest in the book is that there are a couple of guns with short barrels. Of particular interst to this topic is the Non-Pattern Ordnance Carbine in the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation. The gun pictured on page 65 has a barrel length of 25 7/8" of caliber 0.77". The notes indicate that it is am a-
typical mix of sea service and Dutch parts. It was made for horseback use with a side mounted sling-bar. The sling swivels are missing. There is no provision for a front swivel. There is no front sight or bayonet lug and looks to be a cut down gun. It does have the original brass ramrod tip on the wooden rammer.
On page 89 there is a picture of and Officer's Fusil with a barrel length of 34" in caliber 0.67". This gun does have a front sight and seems to be pictured as it was made. Officer's guns were made as a custom order for the particular officer.
Also of note there is a fowler probably made for Roger Lewis with a barrel of 54". Not every gun was short.
Most of the guns pictured havve barrels of 41" to 46" length.
So, I think that the short barreled guns did exist. They are very rare.
One more gun on page 111. This is another one that is described as a carbine. The barrel length is 32" and the caliber is 0.68". It has the interesting feature of the side sling bar. The notes refer to it as a commercial carbine by Ludlum, c 1750. The photograph is credited to the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation.
The report from the Maryland assembly, dated April 13, 1762 indicates that "Firelocks, short muskets and Carbines" were all returned from "Coll Dagworthy's Company.
Enough rambling.
So, get the book "Of Sorts for Provincials" and look at the pictures for yourself.
Rod Lassey
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Yeah, I did some digging this weekend in all my spare time (being sarcastic there, we baptized the twins this morning, and I baled hay last night til after midnight)---ok, in my vanishingly few spare minutes, I finally recalled seeing it in the UMO Handbook. Chronister notes he got the list in Schuler's book on Ft. Pierre. Luckily, I had that one, too, so looked it up in there. Schuler got the list from a 1908 South Dakota Historical Society Quaterly that had it as an addenda to the Lettelier manuscript. Well, I'm getting closer---a couple of years ago the Lettelier family donated the original manuscript that ended up being published in the SDHSQ to the Fort Union archives. Now to look that up and see if the editor back in 1908 noted where he got the reference. Hopefully it will say more than "Chouteau papers" or "AFC ledger", or something else equally vague.
More digging to do......but that's half the fun.
Rod
More digging to do......but that's half the fun.
Rod
In "Of Sorts for Provincials" the shortest guns were meant for cavalry and have a special sliding sling loop on the side of the gun apparently to run on a strap on the mounted soldier. I was also interested in those short guns since I do have anm original 12 ga round barrel only 30" long and was looking for a use for it. But building a gun is a lot of work to save a barrel. Since I don't ride a horse, I mean.
I thought that I mentioned that the guns shown in "Of Sorts for Provincials" were either modified for mounted use or were custom built for officers.
None were for use in a canoe. From what I have read of the voyagers, the use of firearms was very limited.
Most shortened guns should be an obvious modification of a longer gun.
None were for use in a canoe. From what I have read of the voyagers, the use of firearms was very limited.
Most shortened guns should be an obvious modification of a longer gun.
Mike Brooks said:
Users may only have ten quotes per post.
Mike Brooks
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Claude said:
Too much quotin' goin' on out thar! :haha:
