Carrying Concealed Blackpowder Handguns

[necchi]

Humm! I wonder how the OP that considered carrying a BP revolver for CC made out. :hmm:

Well, considering he hasn't posted since August of 09, thing's might not have turned out well if he did decide to carry a BP revolver because it would be cool. :shake:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I asked a question back in the thread that go no answer. I guess the answer for everybody was no. I'll ask again.

Except for a cop. Has anybody been in a gun fight?


Back to a BP gun for protection.. I posted a video that showed a single action revolver being shot at and hit 5-6 targets in .8 of a sec. It takes practice. It's a very effective gun if you can handle it. Most bad guys will buy a gun and never practice. They think waving it around in the general direction of the target is good enough.

This is a strange crowd to be saying a BP gun isn't effective. Don't some of you hunt bear with a ML? Isn't your life in danger when you do that? You even go look for that.

Bad guys aren't trained. They might even hesitate before shooting. One .45 cal lead ball is all you need to stop them. It's not like the movies where they keep shooting after being hit.

 

[David W.]

Been to Vietnam.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

You're home now. :shake:

 

[David W.]

I asked a question back in the thread that go no answer. I guess the answer for everybody was no. I'll ask again.

Except for a cop. Has anybody been in a gun fight?


Back to a BP gun for protection.. I posted a video that showed a single action revolver being shot at and hit 5-6 targets in .8 of a sec. It takes practice. It's a very effective gun if you can handle it. Most bad guys will buy a gun and never practice. They think waving it around in the general direction of the target is good enough.

This is a strange crowd to be saying a BP gun isn't effective. Don't some of you hunt bear with a ML? Isn't your life in danger when you do that? You even go look for that.

Bad guys aren't trained. They might even hesitate before shooting. One .45 cal lead ball is all you need to stop them. It's not like the movies where they keep shooting after being hit.

Actually, I think of jambs and number of rounds available the I select a personal protection weapon. I carry a Walther P99 because it is reliable, has a ambidextious magazine release, and does not have protrusions to catch on clothing. I also can carry a couple of extra mags which will give me about thirty shots.

All firearms require practice to be proficient, but a BP revolver even more so, much more so. Besides, I do not want my sidearm to let me down in a critical situation, should it arise.

I have never been in a civilian gun fight, but I have a class three carry license. I also have shotgun tactical training. In case of home invasion, a Reminton 870 pump is my first choice.

 

[David W.]

You're home now. :shake:

Oh, really?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Capper:

I answered your question, "YES". The details are not anyone's business but my own. But, I have been in a gunfight, and I am not a Law Enforcement Officer. I have also been threatened with armed violence, when I was both armed, and not armed, and I have been shot at intentionally, and unintentionally( as if the bullets care), and I have been hit- so far unintentionally. No, I was not a soldier, either. I have survived, mostly by my wits, but on one occasion, because I was armed and fired back.

I do agree with the remark that if you intend to carry, you need to practice A LOT, and attend as many training schools as you can, to gain proficiency, and to better understand how to deal with Human Predators.( Everything I teach also helps hunters deal with dangerous game encounters, too.)

I write about, lecture, and teach on How to spot human predators, How to avoid them, and How to deal with them if you have no other choice. I also teach how to deal with the police and courts in the aftermath of an armed encounter.

Observation skills training is as important as firearms training when it comes to gunfights. And, no matter how skilled you are at either, you want to avoid them if at all possible. The problem with doing that are people with crazy intentions, and who misread YOU as an easy victim.

Human predators act on instincts, rather than on rational thought and planning, as we so often are shown in TV dramas.( Script writers have to eat, too!) I know this from interviewing hundreds of them as an Assistant Public Defender, and reading thousands of police reports over the years. I have also interviewed police detectives many times, to find out if they get different information from these criminals than I do as their lawyer.

In training people how to SPOT Human Predators, I also then teach them how to LOOK LIKE a human predator, rather than a rabbit. When I train officers who want to go " undercover" to "bait" muggers, I teach them how to appear as "rabbits".

I am amused by the current cable TV show where a "Bait car" is used by police to catch car thieves, and all the whining the thieves do when they are caught- and claiming they were "entrapped"( NOT!). Its right up there with the claims of "Profiling" for the silliness of it all.

There are legitimate cases of "profiling"- don't get me wrong, but the average street cop, working traffic enforcement at night, can't even see into a car until he has it stopped and its dome light is turned on. Before that, all he sees is headlights and a vehicle passing through his radar gun. Are certain makes of cars pulled over more often than others? Yes, some times. Studies also show that certain colors of cars are more likely to be stopped. But, that doesn't mean that the drivers of those cars are driving within the speed limit, and should not be stopped.

I have to agree that even when you are proficient with a BP revolver or pistol, its not the choice I would make for a self defense handgun to carry concealed.

When I trained with John Farnam, back in 1982, he told us to not carry a gun that has not reliably functioned when fired at least 1,000 rounds without a glitch. Very few officers these days have fired that many round their their service handguns to test their reliability to that extent.

I have several pistols and revolvers that have met that test, and I am quite comfortable trusting my life to their reliability. But, that doesn't mean I have stopped using my other skills to avoid gunfights. Being Armed just gives me another option ( lethal force option) to use if everything else fails.

 

[DanC]

I asked a question back in the thread that go no answer. I guess the answer for everybody was no. I'll ask again.
Except for a cop. Has anybody been in a gun fight?

No, I've never had to exchange gunfire. I have trained with both military and police who have.

Back to a BP gun for protection.. I posted a video that showed a single action revolver being shot at and hit 5-6 targets in .8 of a sec. It takes practice. It's a very effective gun if you can handle it.

It can be. But the real question is, how effective is it under combat conditions compared to, say, the 1911 I described? From carry and deployment to fireing under all concievable combat scenarios, including weapon retention and using it as a bludgeon, the 1911 is superior. And I have used a Ruger Blackhawk (not a BP firearm, but is a modern single action revolver) under simulated combat conditions- so I do have a benchmark for comparison.

Most bad guys will buy a gun and never practice. They think waving it around in the general direction of the target is good enough.

There is some truth to that, but I wouldn't count on it. Guess it depends on what kind of bad guy you are going up against- and whether you have the luxury of choosing your bad guy. And there is always the possibility of its being "bad guys"; plural.

This is a strange crowd to be saying a BP gun isn't effective. Don't some of you hunt bear with a ML? Isn't your life in danger when you do that? You even go look for that.

Not really that strange. People who love to shoot and participate in an extremely practical avocation such as reinacting very practical periods are very prone to assesing and choosing the right firearm for a given scenario. And hunting dangerouse game is apples vs. oranges to getting into a life and death conflict with an armed human, or humans.

Bad guys aren't trained. They might even hesitate before shooting. One .45 cal lead ball is all you need to stop them. It's not like the movies where they keep shooting after being hit.

"Never underestimate your opponent." They may be better trained than you are.

Most people, including you (and me), will have a tendency to depend on the gun to control the situation. It is a major factor in the "pointee" being able to disarm the "pointer". So yes, usually they hesitate. But you may also cross paths with a drug altered BG, a nervouse BG, or a sociopath; any of who may not be that hesitant.

Hollywood foolishness aside (the BG either falls dead immediately, or keeps fireing with half his torso and head blown off, dependeng on the script), there are many documented cases of military and police emptying their firearms into an opponent and still being killed before the BG expired. I can think of 2 rounds and 1 gun that was designed especially to deal with this fact. The .40 Smith due to the inadequacy of the 9mm used by the FBI; and the .45 Model 1911 due to combat deficiencies with the .38 cal revolvers in the Fillipine Insurrection. With both, mortally wounded opponents carried out fatal charges with multiple hits. And as someone already pointed out, with BP more people died or were incapicated later of complications than died on the scene/field. Check records from both sides in the War Between the States if you doubt this.

So, if a BP pistol is all I have to hand then yes, it may be used effectively. However, if I was going somewhere or doing something where I thought I might need a firearm to defend my life, then I want a reliable semiauto pistol of adequate caliber and extra magazines- all in a high quality and well thought out carry system.

Not disrespecting BP, just being practical.

Dan C

 

[DanC]

(actually, there is nothing here I feel the need to parse out)

I have to agree with everything you said, sir- excellant post!

Dan C

 

[Claude Mathis]

I posted a video that showed a single action revolver being shot at and hit 5-6 targets in .8 of a sec.

Trick shooting by someone is irrelevant to my ability to protect my family.

Most bad guys will buy a gun and never practice. ”¦ Bad guys aren't trained. They might even hesitate before shooting.

I'd sure hate to loose a family member to a bad guy who never practiced and hesitated before killing one of us. Many "bad guys" think nothing of taking a life. In many cases, it is the inexperienced "citizen" who hesitates.

One .45 cal lead ball is all you need to stop them. It's not like the movies where they keep shooting after being hit.

You are correct, it's not like in the movies, it's real life. Since there is no script that guarantees the outcome you offer, I'll assume the worst (not the ideal, one shot scenario). Therefore, I choose the most efficient, modern weapon I have access to.

I have no problem with what others may choose - It's their life and their choice.

 

[David W.]

Bad guys aren't trained. They might even hesitate before shooting. One .45 cal lead ball is all you need to stop them. It's not like the movies where they keep shooting after being hit.

I'll have to chime in with Claude on that one. Many of the bad guys have absolutely no conscience and would NOT hesitate to shoot you, your wife, or a 3 year old kid without any remorse. Some even laugh about it. It is the person WITH a conscience and little or no traing who usually ends up on the wrong end of the stick, so to speak.

A person can move 21 feet in 1-1/2 seconds. Think about that if you do get attacked.

Unless he was lying, and I see no reason for him to, my trainer was the head of a SWAT team and told of a guy that was shot in the abdoman with a 12 ga. slug. It put him down, but he got right back up. Think about that the next time you believe a single .45 cal ball is all that is needed.

In my karate training, I was taught the first line of defense is to run. We can't always run, so whatever one uses for self defense, train often and train hard and don't stop until the threat has ended and have the right tool for the job.

One other bit of fine advise my trainer gave is "I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six".

When the police arrive the first and only to say is "I was in fear for my life". If they ask "how many shots did you fire", you say "I don't know, count them".

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Well guys. The bad guy better be good, and he better shoot fast if he breaks in my home.

I do practice a lot, and I won't hesitate. I'll use the weapon I have confidence in, and the one I have the powder through.


Claude...It's only trick shooting when you can't do it. :idunno:

 

[CaptainKirk]

Pete;
To answer your question....no. And I hope I never have to find out.
I don't doubt the effectivity of a roundball. Never have. But I question the reliability of a C&B revolver to fire first time, every time. Which is why I simply would not 'choose' a BP firearm as a self-defense weapon. If it was all I had, of course I'd use it. But I simply would not choose it as an educated choice.

 

[nkbj]

I'd still like a percussion revolver that uses .53 round ball.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Pete;
To answer your question....no. And I hope I never have to find out.
I don't doubt the effectivity of a roundball. Never have. But I question the reliability of a C&B revolver to fire first time, every time. Which is why I simply would not 'choose' a BP firearm as a self-defense weapon. If it was all I had, of course I'd use it. But I simply would not choose it as an educated choice.

I've never had a failure in CAS.

A C&B revolver is basically an inline. Very reliable. Much more so than a sidelock rifle.

 

[August West]

Most bad guys will buy a gun and never practice. They think waving it around in the general direction of the target is good enough.

Wow, I wonder how the bad guys manage to keep the murder rate as high as it is in this country, or kill trained police officers, like the 2 that were gunned down in Athens Ga last week.

This is a strange crowd to be saying a BP gun isn't effective.

Not strange, but not living in a fantasy world either. Round balls propelled by black powder are no where near as effective as modern jacketed bullets at much more velocity, simple fact.

Bad guys aren't trained. They might even hesitate before shooting. One .45 cal lead ball is all you need to stop them. It's not like the movies where they keep shooting after being hit.

This statement proves you have never been in any gunfights yourself or shot very much game for that matter. Unless you are talking about CNS hits, they most certainly do keep shooting back, a lot of instances they don't even react to the shot even though it may be a fatal hit, again, excluding CNS hits. If anyone is as proficient with antique firearms as you say, they will be monsters with modern equipment and life or death is all about every advantage you can get. Chris

 

[Pete Gaimari]

"Wow, I wonder how the bad guys manage to keep the murder rate as high as it is in this country, or kill trained police officers, like the 2 that were gunned down in Athens Ga last week."

Sarcasm becomes you. Maybe that's why I said most and not all. Probably the type that might break into a home. Not really skilled bad guys. Usually just drug addicts.











"Not as effective as modern jacketed bullets at much more velocity."

Really? No kidding? Why don't you hunt with those? They sound terrific.

[





"This statement proves you have never been in any gunfights yourself or shot very much game for that matter. Unless you are talking about CNS hits, they most certainly do keep shooting back, a lot of instances they don't even react to the shot even though it may be a fatal hit, again, excluding CNS hits. If anyone is as proficient with antique firearms as you say, they will be monsters with modern equipment and life or death is all about every advantage you can get."

So, you're comparing how a deer/elk reacts to being shot to a human being shot? Do you think if I shot you point blank with a .45 that you'd take off at full speed for 100 yds? Funny guy.


btw... How many gun fights have you been in Wyatt?

 

[August West]

Capper,
You are either trolling or not too smart, just like the still hunting thread, I will show myself to the door and do my best to not read your posts from now on. Chris/Wyatt Earp

 

[Claude Mathis]

It appears we're done here.