Caucasian Miquelet "Cossack" Pistol & Locks

[Sam squanch]

Ok. Use your spare parts and build another gun with it!

 

[Rudyard]

No, Earl still has all the pieces to the load. I should have unloaded it myself. The ball didn't even have the sprue cut off. LOL I didn't want to pay the hazemet fee to get the powder back.
Yes, that silver stocked pistol was likely mine also. Actually, I think it's Albanian. A real bad to good story with that one. Maybe I should Post the story (?) Is this the pistol you're referring to ?

Rick

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' Revel 'kits plastic copies well done & to scale offered possible this same pistol Copied in plastic about 19 58 or so they did a Peacemaker & Pepper box ect I had those two all that remains is a plastic flint and a Colt hammer .They said it was North African Arab but at that time few had any Idea what such pieces where (aside of the Colt ect .So no matter ) But my memories of it was clear yet . Maybe some poster has one to compare ?. long shot but who knows ?
Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Ok. Use your spare parts and build another gun with it!

LOL !!! I'm pretty sure I do have a lock and even a ball trigger. If I were younger, and still in my working years, I might have had another gun made. But I already have a Caucasian rifle to shoot. So I'll just hang on to it. Someone may want the barrel and lock to do just that. IMO the barrel will need to go to Bobby Hoyt for a new liner and other work.

Normally, I wouldn't have bid on this. But curiosity got the best of me at the moment.

Rick

 

[cyten]

I recently won this barrel at an auction. I might have been the only bidder as I got it for the opening bid price. It was advertised as an India Torador barrel. Of course, I didn't think it was. Normally I would not bid on a barrel that is percussion. But something about this barrel intrigued me. But I couldn't put my finger on it. Hmmmm. So I received the barrel and had a couple big surprises. The barrel is 45 3/4" long, about .55 caliber, with a dark patina and a cruddy bore. LOL But the bore has (what's left of) 8-groove rifling. The percussion bolster was added later, during the period. The barrel was probably originally mated with a miquelet style flintlock. It's tapered round with a flower muzzle. And there is familiar moldings near the muzzle and breech ends, with a slightly raised central rid most of the length of the barrel. The barrel is very light weight. There is also slight evidence the barrel was originally blued.
So, with this evidence, it suddenly dawned on me. I strongly believe this barrel is from a Caucasian rifle. While most Caucasian style barrels were not usually this long, they did exist. The moldings on the from and rear are very close, if not exactly like you see on other Caucasian rifle and pistol barrels.

Now, the strange part: The breech plug tang has a mounting hole for a flat-top type screw. Unusual. Sometime, probably during the 20th Century, someone brazed on a wedge plate and 5 tiny pins on the bottom of the barrel 3 pins are missing. Fortunately the holes for the pins did not go all the way through the barrel. Maybe someone added these items for some type of display ? Very odd.
Lots of pics....

Rick

Great acquisition Rick! While I’m by no means an expert, I have never seen and open notch rear sight on a Caucasian barrel. That looks more like a Torador or Afghan barrel sight to me. And as for the numbers stamped, also something I’ve never seen on a Caucasian barrel, but I have seen on a Torador. Could it be a Persian barrel?

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

Well, for sure, this one is difficult to I.D. Ignoring the strange part I posted above. The barrel could be Persian. Or possibly South India. But I'm positive it's not Afghan work. One could even speculate it being Ottoman. The patina on this barrel is so dark, it is difficult to photo the moldings on the top front and rear on top of the barrel. As well, the single, raised ridge. But the moldings (probably once covered with gold leaf and now worn off) look similar to other Caucasian - or Persian influenced - barrels I've seen in the past. The barrel is lightly tapered round except for the top, rear breech area is slightly octagon for about 6 inches. Agreed, most of the rear sights on Caucasian barrels I've seen have a round hole, peep type sight. But I've seen a couple in the past that also have the top, open cut added. (similar to Afghan and Ottoman barrels - and others). But the .50-.55 caliber rifled is a bit small for other barrels. But common for Caucasian barrels. We know the Caucasians were obsessed with have their guns made as light as possible. And this barrel would exemplify that. For a 46" long, .50 caliber rifled barrel, it is very light weight. But I can easily see this barrel was last mounted to a later, percussion period Persian rifle. I still think this barrel started life as a flint type barrel on a Caucasian rifle. Then, converted to percussion and re-purposed for another gun. It is indeed a strange one.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Had a chance to visit the Tula Arms Museum the other day. Tula is the oldest weapons factory in Russia. Here are some of the Caucasian arms that were on display.

Model 1832 Cossack rifles, flint and percussion conversion

Model 1860 Cossack rifles

 

[TobJohn]

Had a chance to visit the Tula Arms Museum the other day. Tula is the oldest weapons factory in Russia. Here are some of the Caucasian arms that were on display.

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Model 1832 Cossack rifles, flint and percussion conversion
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Model 1860 Cossack rifles
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Thank you for providing photos from a museum that most of us won’t be able to see for the foreseeable future!

 

[sportster73hp]

Is 1,000 yards or meters a distance the gun is capable of ? Seems a long way off

 

[rickystl]

Is 1,000 yards or meters a distance the gun is capable of ? Seems a long way off

That does seem a bit optimistic. But then, the British pattern 1853 musket had graduations out to 800 yards/meters. Also a bit optimistic. But in the Enfield's case, I believe it was more of a marketing tool.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

That does seem a bit optimistic. But then, the British pattern 1853 musket had graduations out to 800 yards/meters. Also a bit optimistic. But in the Enfield's case, I believe it was more of a marketing tool.

Rick

Nothing remotely to do with' marketing' . More to do with lobbing Volley's at distant foes by infantry as if twenty men shot at a horse pulled gun or a massed rank of foes then if just one round downs a horse the resultant mess at man or horse will be 'effective fire' .Plus it gives a cannon an idea of the range .particularly in dusty lands the dust kick up particularly with Explosive bullets saves artillery rounds . My Volunteer Enfield is sighted to 900 yards (I detest metric rubbish )The old Lee Metford was sighted to 2800 yards . Same thinking volley fire to upset the opposition . A single soldier hit by deliberate aim by an individual foe would be very unfortunate fellow .Which rather goes without saying .
Regards Rudyard

 

[fireman1]

Nothing remotely to do with' marketing' . More to do with lobbing Volley's at distant foes by infantry as if twenty men shot at a horse pulled gun or a massed rank of foes then if just one round downs a horse the resultant mess at man or horse will be 'effective fire' .Plus it gives a cannon an idea of the range .particularly in dusty lands the dust kick up particularly with Explosive bullets saves artillery rounds . My Volunteer Enfield is sighted to 900 yards (I detest metric rubbish )The old Lee Metford was sighted to 2800 yards . Same thinking volley fire to upset the opposition . A single soldier hit by deliberate aim by an individual foe would be very unfortunate fellow .Which rather goes without saying .
Regards Rudyard

Exactly. The tactic carried on into world war one. Belt feds took away the need for long distance volley fire tactics.

 

[rickystl]

Nothing remotely to do with' marketing' . More to do with lobbing Volley's at distant foes by infantry as if twenty men shot at a horse pulled gun or a massed rank of foes then if just one round downs a horse the resultant mess at man or horse will be 'effective fire' .Plus it gives a cannon an idea of the range .particularly in dusty lands the dust kick up particularly with Explosive bullets saves artillery rounds . My Volunteer Enfield is sighted to 900 yards (I detest metric rubbish )The old Lee Metford was sighted to 2800 yards . Same thinking volley fire to upset the opposition . A single soldier hit by deliberate aim by an individual foe would be very unfortunate fellow .Which rather goes without saying .
Regards Rudyard

Thanks Rudyard. That's interesting. Did not know this.

Rick

 

[wulf1928]

I made this lock but when I saw what the rifles looked like I quit the project

 

[cyten]

Back in Armenia now, and after apartment hunting and dealing with our new place flooding on our first night, managed to grab some tasty lahmajo and visit the Yerevan History Museum (not to be confused with the Museum of History) to see this small display. One of the Khirimi is a percussion conversion, I've seen very few and usually in poor condition.

an acquaintance in Chechnya was in a museum there recently and found this interesting brace of pistols

a Daghestani pistol and a Circassian S&W

 

[TobJohn]

Back in Armenia now, and after apartment hunting and dealing with our new place flooding on our first night, managed to grab some tasty lahmajo and visit the Yerevan History Museum (not to be confused with the Museum of History) to see this small display. One of the Khirimi is a percussion conversion, I've seen very few and usually in poor condition.

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an acquaintance in Chechnya was in a museum there recently and found this interesting brace of pistols
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a Daghestani pistol and a Circassian S&W

The bottom revolver is one of the coolest pistols I’ve ever seen. I love the blending of styles!

 

[Sam squanch]

Probably a Tula knockoff…..

 

[rickystl]

Thanks Cyten for the latest photos. That S&W is a first for me. Cool display with the rifles and blunderbuss.

It's interesting that even 30+ years ago when most "Eastern" market guns were taken by dealers only on a consignment basis, these guns and accessories from the Caucasus region would bring a premium at auctions even back then.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Thanks Cyten for the latest photos. That S&W is a first for me. Cool display with the rifles and blunderbuss.

It's interesting that even 30+ years ago when most "Eastern" market guns were taken by dealers only on a consignment basis, these guns and accessories from the Caucasus region would bring a premium at auctions even back then.

Rick

Any idea why? I know there is a decent population of Armenian heritage Americans, but the market in the US can’t have been bigger for them than other near East gun.

 

[rickystl]

Hi John

No idea why. But it's been that way for as long as I can remember. Also curious, is the BLADES (swords, daggers, etc.) from Eastern markets usually bring a premium over the blades from European origins. There are many collectors for the blades. But in the case of the Caucasus, guns, blades, accessories have always brought a premium. My Caucasian rifle, years ago, still cost me around $1,200.00 - before a complete restoration. Don't know who collects the guns, but they typically all sell at auctions.

 

[cyten]

I also wonder about who buys them, haven't met any collectors stateside who have them, aside from you, Rick. But they go for OBSCENE prices in Russia. The pistol, for example, from the first page on this thread was selling for 320,000 rubles, which back then would've been just over $5,000! And they do sell!