Change in POI? Causes?

[Artificer]

There are two VERY common reasons for what you experienced.

There is a very old adage NM shooters use "Light's up, Sights up." Meaning with more sunlight, you need more elevation or the holes in the target will be lower. This is also true when you start shooting in the morning and as the sun rises toward noon, you need a little more elevation.

The second reason is your "spot weld" or where you keep your cheek on the gun. Putting your cheek in a different position causes your shooting eye to be in a different position and that will cause you to shoot higher or lower, depending on where your cheek is on the stock. Try to keep your cheek and eye in exactly the same position every time you shoulder the gun to keep this from happening.

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

One other thing just occurred to me. Did you changed the way you held the rifle on the rest?

I always grasp the forend the same as for offhand shooting, then rest that hand on the front rest. With the rifle sighted in that way, I get a POI shift any time I rest the forend directly onto the front rest.

 

[azmntman]

.

. It hard to shoot good when you're in pain. To shoot your best you need to be settled and at ease.
[/quote]



Very, very true, my friend. And I know pain by it's first name and intimately. I have a high pain tolerance; but the chronic pain I deal with now is almost at my limit. Fused neck, scoliosis, degenerative spine disease and ra. Can barely pick up a glass of water without using both hands. I feel for you, brother.

Oh, did I mention the chronic fatigue that accompanies it all, can't walk very far and have to use a cane. You know what would make me feel better? If someone would build me a nice rifle (EL) for a Christmas present. :v: :dead: :hijacked: :idunno:

Thank you for that! Now I feel better about my fused neck, bulged disc ij ack, gout, planter facisists(?) and being FAT! Working hardon FAT, lost 8 lbs in last 3 weeks by hiking (in pain) and diet.

Hang tight, in heaven is a grand buffet and FAT is GOOD! :grin:








[/quote]

 

[azmntman]

There are two VERY common reasons for what you experienced.

There is a very old adage NM shooters use "Light's up, Sights up." Meaning with more sunlight, you need more elevation or the holes in the target will be lower. This is also true when you start shooting in the morning and as the sun rises toward noon, you need a little more elevation.

The second reason is your "spot weld" or where you keep your cheek on the gun. Putting your cheek in a different position causes your shooting eye to be in a different position and that will cause you to shoot higher or lower, depending on where your cheek is on the stock. Try to keep your cheek and eye in exactly the same position every time you shoulder the gun to keep this from happening.

Gus

Tried to explain this to a buddy as he sited in his girlfriends bow for elk. He is Educated though. She missed 4 shots, all low. At camp she shot (low) till he adjusted sites for HER :rotf: A gun sited in is sited in for the siteriner only (or bow).

 

[Billnpatti]

I had read something like this before. I located it in a notebook that I have been keeping of muzzleloading data. I thought it was a funny quote so I wrote it in the notebook some time back. It is a bit different from what you wrote. This one refers to a demon rather than an angel. I think it must also be in a different German dialect. It goes like this:

"Alle Geschicklichkeit ist umsonst, wenn ein Deamon in dein Berührungsloch pisst."

I noticed that in this quotation the touch hole is a different word. When I looked up the word "notenloch" it translates into "note hole" not touch hole. Different dialect? :idunno: Either way, it is a funny quote.

Very similar is another one: "Alles ist für nichts, wenn ein Dämon Ihre Gewehrkugel reitet." Which translated is "All is for nought if a demon rides your rifle ball"

Funny quotes all. :haha:

 

[Artificer]

The second reason is your "spot weld" or where you keep your cheek on the gun. Putting your cheek in a different position causes your shooting eye to be in a different position and that will cause you to shoot higher or lower, depending on where your cheek is on the stock. Try to keep your cheek and eye in exactly the same position every time you shoulder the gun to keep this from happening.

Gus

Tried to explain this to a buddy as he sited in his girlfriends bow for elk. He is Educated though. She missed 4 shots, all low. At camp she shot (low) till he adjusted sites for HER :rotf: A gun sited in is sited in for the siteriner only (or bow).

EXACTLY correct! Variations in neck length, arm length and the shape of the chest of the person sighting the gun in, as well as his/her own individual eye sight will cause these variations from one person to another.

With my astigmatism, I have to get as close as possible to the rear sight for the best and most uniform sighting results. Which leads to the point that if the same person shoots the gun and places his/her cheek further forward or backward on the stock from one session to another, this will also cause the gun to shoot to a different point of impact.

It is not unusual at all that a rifle sighted for a man will be “off” for a woman, because of the physical differences mentioned here.

Gus

 

[Tom Compton]

My experience, at about age 40 was shooting 100 yd offhand. Very frustrated w 2 groups. One pretty well centered and the other at 12 o'clock. Called my mentor. He said "you're getting old". Further conversation and he explained I was seeing a ghost around my rear sight then instead of leveling the front sight with top of the rear I was leveling it with the top of the post. 3 options either an aperture on my glasses, aperture rear sight or move the rear sight a couple inches toward the bore. Aperture on the glasses was the quick fix.
TC

 

[Loyalist Dave]

"Alle Geschicklichkeit ist umsonst, wenn ein Deamon in dein Berührungsloch pisst."

I noticed that in this quotation the touch hole is a different word. When I looked up the word "notenloch" it translates into "note hole" not touch hole. Different dialect? Either way, it is a funny quote.

Very similar is another one: "Alles ist für nichts, wenn ein Dämon Ihre Gewehrkugel reitet." Which translated is "All is for nought if a demon rides your rifle ball"

You can see "Deamon" and "Dämon" in your quotes, but I'd bet they are meant to be the same thing. Also in mine "uriniert" is actually "urinate" while in one of yours they use what was probably the proper word for the saying, especially among soldiers, "pisst" for "pi$$ed". So I think mine is "cleaned up" for modern folk. :haha:

Here is a different one...,

"Alle Kunst ist umsonst Wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch Prunst”

All skill is in vain when an Angle pisses on your flintlock..., which was the one I was looking for first. I have saved your two as well.
:thumbsup:

LD

 

[koauke]

I posted a while back about the POI change I've been experiencing but wanted to give an update. I have had the rifle out three times since then (TVM Virginia) but I'm getting the same results. Its shooting 6-7 inches low and it used to shoot 2-3 inches high.

In the first thread I wondered if maybe the touch hole could have opened up too much. As a refresher, I've had the rifle for a year now and have put at least 500 rounds through it.

Anyhow I had it out again today and I'm still getting the same results. Its shooting consistently about 7 inches low when it used to shoot 2-3 inches high with a 6 O'clock hold.

Here is the target from today at 50 yards from the bench with a front bag. I was using a .495 ball, 60gr of 3f, moose milk patch lube, and a .018 ticking patch. This is the same load combo I've been using almost since I got the rifle. The first shot out of the rifle hit the bottom of the Shoot-N-C target and I was holding center of the target. The next 2 shots are the two lowest shots and I was still using a center hold on the target. For the other six shots I was holding at the top of the Shoot-N-C.



This picture is of the touch hole. Does it look like there may be some erosion at the front edge of the hole?

 

[hawkeye2]

It's quite possible your gun needs a fouling shot before it starts to group. The shot in the bull would be your fouling shot and it looks like it may have begun to form a group with shots 2 & 3 but you made a mistake at this point in changing from a center hold to a top of bull hold. It looks like you would have had a fairly good 8 shot group low at 6:30/7:00 if you hadn't. Go back to the range and try again without changing anything including your hold. If you are getting a consistent and satisfactory group then adjust your sights to bring it in to the 10 ring. A couple of things that come to mind are that the moisture content of the wood may have changed in a year resulting in the stock exerting pressure on the barrel differently than before and it may have taken some time to adjust to the humidity in your home. It's also possible recoil has compressed some wood changing the bedding. Both these things would affect the point of impact though I must admit that an 8"+ vertical change is a lot. I would be more concerned with the size of the group than where the gun shot a year ago when new. Have you had the barrel out of the stock at all?

It's difficult to say if there is some erosion with all the powder residue around the touch hole but it does look like there may be some. A photo taken straighter on after the area was cleaned would help.

 

[Cowboy]

Looks to me that you need to file your front sight down. File a tad off/ shoot from the bench totally supported. Keep repeating this process until you achieve your desired results. Go slow and easy though!

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[koauke]

Yes, it does need a fouling shot before it settles. The first shot tends be be unpredictable. I suppose it could be the wood, but it wasn't a gradual change in POI, it just all of a sudden started shooting low.

I had the barrel out of the stock once, but that was soon after I got it. When cleaning it water had gotten in the barrel channel so I pulled it to check and I wiped the barrel down with oil.

Here is a photo of the touch hole after cleaning the rifle. The screw slot is a little messed up as I didn't realize the touch hole wasn't removable when I first got it. The front edge of the touch hole does look like it has worn.

 

[mooman76]

If it's shooting low consistently for whatever reason, I'd just adjust the sights and move on. Life is too short.

 

[curator]

It sounds as though your rifle is "settling in" with use. New guns do need a period of use to get the barrel broken in and the wood-to-metal fit nice and snug. Stainless steel touch hole liners also erode pretty fast from my experience especially with heavy loads. I prefer the Ampco liners as they last for several thousand shots. For sure, something has changed to get it to shoot that much lower. My flint rifles will shoot significantly lower with slippery patch lube. It seems a little more bore friction results in higher velocity and cleaner burn. Your problem might not be one thing but a combination of things.

 

[mooman76]

You hear about things like this every so often. Someone get a gun out they haven't shoot in years and all of a sudden, it's shooting different. Maybe it's some little thing they forgot about that they are doing different, maybe it's a change that happened like their patches are slightly different or the lube. I know things change for me that I could swear were a different way, but my memory isn't getting better. Who really knows? Maybe we never will figure it out.

 

[Cowboy]

I think that you're overthinking this thing! You've stated that you use to hit 2" to 3" high when you first started shooting the rifle. You also stated that you are now consistently shooting low! You stated that you've now put 500 balls through the barrel. Oh!, and the touch hole liner you think that might need to be replaced :hmm:

First off, your barrel just went through a breaking in phase! The change in your POI is probably a direct result of that! You now have 500 balls through it. Pretty sure your barrel is by now seated in the barrel channel as well! Don't see any reason to have touchhole liner issues this early in the game. You've only had the rifle now for a year right?

Bottom line is, " Just file that front sight down and bring your point of impact up!! " Just do it and be done with it.

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[hanshi]

So far none of my rifles has ever needed a "fouling" shot and that first shot of the day is always in the budding group. Now, rarely do any of them sit unused for very long; usually just a few months max. At least three of them have had way beyond 500 rounds through them with the others being a possibility. Still, I have run into a very similar problem. The last 2-3 range sessions had them shooting some 4" plus higher than they are sighted in for. Maybe it's me, I don't know. But I do know I failed to offer up a sacrifice under a full moon at an east flowing stream this year. Or maybe a MOJO has been placed on them without my knowledge. :idunno:

 

[19 16 6]

The screw slot is a little messed up as I didn't realize the touch hole wasn't removable when I first got it.

To me that touch hole looks removable.
It needs a well fitted screwdriver blade & tap & turn.
Put a little never seize on the threads of the new one.
O.

 

[joe sebia]

Do you wear glassees? If you have progressive lenses be sure you are shooting from the same spot on the glasses.

I had that problem and it drove me bonkers until I figured that one out. From what I've learned on here I wasn't the only one.