Primarily minies, I’ve never really cared for the maxi-ball
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Compare .50 cal and .54 cal to rifle cartridge's
- Thread starter Dstoltz
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As someone has already state, consider traditional muzzleloading much like archery on steroids. Unless the spine or central nervous system is completely displaced I always expect a runner. It is an extremely rare deer that instantly falls to a well placed shot that doesn't sever the spine when using a muzzleloader. I can think of one in all the dozens I've shot. Also, a big 12 gage slug is much bigger and heavier than a 54, yet, they also, in my experience, do not knock deer flat when punched through the heart/lung region. I've seen hearts turned into lasagna and the deer still went 60 yards before folding up. Round Balls, Conicals or
Slugs kill deer very well, but they aren't the zipping fast projectiles centerfire rifles are. (I don't even expect a DRT with the 4570 flat nose 405 grain bullet at 1,600 fps. It happens but it isn't the rule)
Slugs kill deer very well, but they aren't the zipping fast projectiles centerfire rifles are. (I don't even expect a DRT with the 4570 flat nose 405 grain bullet at 1,600 fps. It happens but it isn't the rule)
Maybe something to do with the Holy Hand Grenade and how you pull the Holy Pin?
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IMO: Consider myself kind of an experienced amateur when it comes to killing deer and hogs with patched round balls. IME: Patched round balls kill much better than ballistics indicate. Most of the deer i kill with conventional muzzleloaders are shot from tree stands or blinds. Vast majority are shot at 40 yards or less. A few shots have been close to vertical. Some were shot the old fashioned way by sneaking up close. But my crawling and sneaking days are limited.
My preference is for high shoulder shots or high just behind the shoulder shots. Sometimes the back straps are bruised from balls that struck just below the spine. About 50 percent of my shots are bang flops. Majority of deer shot in the heart-lung area with a .50 or .54 round ball run 50-100 yards. Had one run 200 yards.
My minimum charge for .50 and .54 rifles is 80 grains, the maximum is 100 grains. Put in the right place a .50 or larger patched round ball is as effective as a .30-06. Ball placement is everything; botch the shot and you're in for it.
Hogs are another matter: Don't shoot a hog behind the ear, there's nothing there. Shoot a broadside hog behind the crook in the front leg or high in the shoulder.
Hog Anatomy and Physiology | Boarmasters | Bear, Hog, Deer, and Elk Bait, Lures, Attractants, Snares, and Hunting
My preference is for high shoulder shots or high just behind the shoulder shots. Sometimes the back straps are bruised from balls that struck just below the spine. About 50 percent of my shots are bang flops. Majority of deer shot in the heart-lung area with a .50 or .54 round ball run 50-100 yards. Had one run 200 yards.
My minimum charge for .50 and .54 rifles is 80 grains, the maximum is 100 grains. Put in the right place a .50 or larger patched round ball is as effective as a .30-06. Ball placement is everything; botch the shot and you're in for it.
Hogs are another matter: Don't shoot a hog behind the ear, there's nothing there. Shoot a broadside hog behind the crook in the front leg or high in the shoulder.
Hog Anatomy and Physiology | Boarmasters | Bear, Hog, Deer, and Elk Bait, Lures, Attractants, Snares, and Hunting
Bob McBride
54 Cal.
The only times I’ve ever literally knocked a deer over with a nicely placed broadside shot through the heart/lungs was with a .58 caliber BP rifle and I’ve shot them with just about everything. I’d say a big bore projectile without a pointy end is as good as it gets.
I would speculate that a shot that won't kill a deer with a 50 probably won't kill that deer with a 54. And a shot that will kill the deer with a 54 will kill that same deer with a 50.
hanshi
Cannon
THBailey, brings up a sort of "truism". If you hit a deer with a little gun and he gets away the same hit with a big gun won't make any difference.
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Shot this spike buck yesterday morning with a .50 round ball at a distance of about 20 yards. Buck was quartering away. Ball entered between the shoulder and body, striking the spine. Ball did not exit.
rodwha
58 Cal.
Shot this spike buck yesterday morning with a .50 round ball at a distance of about 20 yards. Buck was quartering away. Ball entered between the shoulder and body, striking the spine. Ball did not exit.
Like the hoist too!
I'm going to throw another comment in the basket. I take shots that are mostly at or near 100-yards. This is due to the terrain I hunt, mostly open areas. Pronghorn, whitetail and free-range exotics. I also hunt a lot of animals larger than whitetail deer (which deer are not very big where I hunt). Having used several calibers in the past, I do notice that the heavier RB of the .54 caliber usually (but not always) leaves more blood and will break big bones and still penetrate (moreso than a lighter ball). I know I don't need bigger than a .50 ball for deer and antelope but I like to use the same few rifles for hunting everything so I go to the .54. With that in mind, I also have a .58 and .62 but I forego them for the same hunting conditions because the .54 has a superior trajectory. I feel like I am getting the most out of the .54 because the trajectory is useful between 100 and 150-yards if I do my part and everything is perfect and there is ample ability to break bones and/or exit animals including those much larger than deer, with somewhat better blood trail in most cases. In closer range scenarios and thicker cover I like the .58 and .62 but would never say it was a necessity for success.
Sam squanch
69 Cal.
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Ever read that book, the “ conicals “ of narnia?
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I find this comparison idea interesting. I am well aware it is by no means a direct or perfect comparison. I think muzzleloader hunting with a roundball compares more closely with larger pistol caliber carbines and "brush gun" type rifles than high power bottle necked cartridges like .270 or .30-06. I would like to expand on what was posted earlier by Walkingeagle and Sparkitoff, in that train of thought my list for deer calibers is below.
.40 ~.30 carbine
.45~ .357 magnum carbine
.50~ .30-30/ .41 magnum carbine
.54~ .35 Rem/.38-55/ .44 magnum carbine
.58~.45-70/ .454 Casull carbine
.62~ 20 Gauge slug 3/4 oz
.69~ 16 Gauge slug 1oz
.72~ 12 Gauge slug 11/4 oz
.75~ 10 Gauge slug 13/4 oz
Obviously there are variables like powder charge, barrel length, powder type/brand, etc. that cause a lot of variation in each caliber's performance. I believe the above to be a general comparison within reasonable limits for muzzleloading rifles firing PRB. The same rifles firing conicals would compare almost perfectly with their blackpowder cartridge brethren using the cal/charge/bullet weight (.45/70/405) nomenclature.
.40 ~.30 carbine
.45~ .357 magnum carbine
.50~ .30-30/ .41 magnum carbine
.54~ .35 Rem/.38-55/ .44 magnum carbine
.58~.45-70/ .454 Casull carbine
.62~ 20 Gauge slug 3/4 oz
.69~ 16 Gauge slug 1oz
.72~ 12 Gauge slug 11/4 oz
.75~ 10 Gauge slug 13/4 oz
Obviously there are variables like powder charge, barrel length, powder type/brand, etc. that cause a lot of variation in each caliber's performance. I believe the above to be a general comparison within reasonable limits for muzzleloading rifles firing PRB. The same rifles firing conicals would compare almost perfectly with their blackpowder cartridge brethren using the cal/charge/bullet weight (.45/70/405) nomenclature.
Sam squanch
69 Cal.
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I want to make as big of a hole as possible in the deer. So it will bleed out faster. I will not use anything smaller than a 54 on deer anymore. My friend shot a 8 point buck with a 45, heart shot, it ran 100 yards to the road and died. He got there in time to see two scumbags load it in their car and drive off . It’s a problem here if you hunt close to a highway. The only thing idiots around here won’t steal is a red hot stove....
hanshi
Cannon
Here's mine:
.45 = dead deer
.50 = dead deer
.54 = dead deer
.58 = dead deer
.62 = dead deer
I like Hammond79’s comparison, especially to the lever Guns. Hanshi sure summed it up though 
!
!
Bent Sight
36 Cal.
Does anyone hunt with a two patched round ball load? I would expect it to be effective on deer.
appalichian hunter
75 Cal.
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Shot placement is everything, It does not matter the cal. if you hunt with a bigger bore muzzle loader do not expect the ball size to make up for poor marksmanship, There has been more deer killed with a .22 cal rifle than one realizes and there has been more deer wounded also bye small cal. only to get away and suffer. I have a friend who is a taxidermist he has a box full of small cal. rounds that has been removed from the deer heads he has mounted. I personally like and hunt with the big bores especially like the .62 but if I am not sure of a killing shot the deer walks until next time. At the sake of being warned bye Zonie this past Monday second day of regular rifle season I shot a big 7 at about 100 yards the rifle was a 450 bushmaster that I built with ammo that I loaded Instant death. If you are looking for high power rifle comparisons vs. muzzleloading weapons you need to spend some range time with the front stuffers. And think about ethics of muzzle loading hunting big game.
Wow...
A lot of information and debate. Dstoltz, are you confused yet?
We don't even agree on modern comparison of cartridges to help illustrate the difference.
See, I'd look at the bullet weight and velocity, so....
The 177 grain round ball from a .50 rifle is kinda-sorta-like a 170 grain bullet fired from a .41 magnum revolver.
The 224 grain round ball from a .54 is kinda-sorta-like a 225 grain bullet fired from a .44 magnum revolver.
The weights are similar and the velocities are similar.. but that's all...
BUT...., The diameter is larger in the round ball, and the ball is soft lead while the handgun bullets are either very hard lead alloy, or are jacketed bullets, PLUS the rifles are shoulder fired making it much easier to be accurate than using a handgun
FURTHER..., the round ball is round, so it's ballistic coefficient is very poor, however, it's performance on impact with a deer is quite different than any other form of projectile. The performance has been noted many times by men who compared the old round ball to the new, heavier, pointed bullets....the round ball does surprisingly well.
So here's some information, some a reiteration of the previous responses,
Modern hunters have a distance advantage and all weather capability over traditional muzzle loaders (at least on paper they do). Because they choose to take advantage of the option to be able to shoot to 300 - 400 yards, even when it's raining to harvest a deer, they have to use modern bullets. They then usually rely on velocity to keep the trajectory variation small, and they usually rely on the bullet deforming into a larger diameter to cause the instant, traumatic damage that harvests the deer.
Traditional Muzzle Loaders because of the older technology aren't going to be able to get that flat trajectory, and due to physics, what speed is given to that ball is quickly shed. So soft, pure, or almost pure lead is used, and the ball starts out large (compared to a modern bullet) at the start. So the modern guy often is delivering a .224 to .358 bullet that travels to 300 yards, and wants it to "mushroom" to .45 or better on impact, and wants the bullet on impact to get to that size fast to then do the necessary damage. The traditional hunter is launching a bullet to travel 100 yards or less, and that bullet is already .45 diameter (or larger). So any deformation is a bonus, and the traditional muzzle loader hunter simply wants that bullet to go deep enough into the animal to do the necessary damage.
Shot placement is always the primary factor, modern rifle or traditional muzzleloader. (imho) The modern guys rely too much on bullet deformation at impact to compensate for poor accuracy from their rifle and ammunition (or poor marksmanship skills).
THEN you get into the nitty-gritty village....
The .440 is the lightest of "the big three calibers", so is often going faster, and kicks less, but has less inertia on impact, but reliably kills deer...
The .490 round ball gives more impact weight, and recoils a bit more, but has a better trajectory than a .530 ball, but reliably kills deer...
The .530 round ball usually recoils the most, but has the highest impact weight, but the poorest of the three trajectories, but reliably kills deer...
All of the above is a simplistic explanation. There are a lot of other areas where the hunter can modify a variable to get some different, desired results.
The deer likely isn't going to notice such differences.
LD
A lot of information and debate. Dstoltz, are you confused yet?
We don't even agree on modern comparison of cartridges to help illustrate the difference.
See, I'd look at the bullet weight and velocity, so....
The 177 grain round ball from a .50 rifle is kinda-sorta-like a 170 grain bullet fired from a .41 magnum revolver.
The 224 grain round ball from a .54 is kinda-sorta-like a 225 grain bullet fired from a .44 magnum revolver.
The weights are similar and the velocities are similar.. but that's all...
BUT...., The diameter is larger in the round ball, and the ball is soft lead while the handgun bullets are either very hard lead alloy, or are jacketed bullets, PLUS the rifles are shoulder fired making it much easier to be accurate than using a handgun
FURTHER..., the round ball is round, so it's ballistic coefficient is very poor, however, it's performance on impact with a deer is quite different than any other form of projectile. The performance has been noted many times by men who compared the old round ball to the new, heavier, pointed bullets....the round ball does surprisingly well.
So here's some information, some a reiteration of the previous responses,
Modern hunters have a distance advantage and all weather capability over traditional muzzle loaders (at least on paper they do). Because they choose to take advantage of the option to be able to shoot to 300 - 400 yards, even when it's raining to harvest a deer, they have to use modern bullets. They then usually rely on velocity to keep the trajectory variation small, and they usually rely on the bullet deforming into a larger diameter to cause the instant, traumatic damage that harvests the deer.
Traditional Muzzle Loaders because of the older technology aren't going to be able to get that flat trajectory, and due to physics, what speed is given to that ball is quickly shed. So soft, pure, or almost pure lead is used, and the ball starts out large (compared to a modern bullet) at the start. So the modern guy often is delivering a .224 to .358 bullet that travels to 300 yards, and wants it to "mushroom" to .45 or better on impact, and wants the bullet on impact to get to that size fast to then do the necessary damage. The traditional hunter is launching a bullet to travel 100 yards or less, and that bullet is already .45 diameter (or larger). So any deformation is a bonus, and the traditional muzzle loader hunter simply wants that bullet to go deep enough into the animal to do the necessary damage.
Shot placement is always the primary factor, modern rifle or traditional muzzleloader. (imho) The modern guys rely too much on bullet deformation at impact to compensate for poor accuracy from their rifle and ammunition (or poor marksmanship skills).
THEN you get into the nitty-gritty village....
The .440 is the lightest of "the big three calibers", so is often going faster, and kicks less, but has less inertia on impact, but reliably kills deer...
The .490 round ball gives more impact weight, and recoils a bit more, but has a better trajectory than a .530 ball, but reliably kills deer...
The .530 round ball usually recoils the most, but has the highest impact weight, but the poorest of the three trajectories, but reliably kills deer...
All of the above is a simplistic explanation. There are a lot of other areas where the hunter can modify a variable to get some different, desired results.
The deer likely isn't going to notice such differences.
LD
