Conflicting views on baiting

[Keith]

The number of tags issued id based on how many animals a manager wants harvest, and on success rates. If baiting increases success rates then the managers issue fewer tags. Example Say 10 % of the hunters fill a tag w/ baiting. Then you allow baiting and 40 % fill their tags, 4X the success rate. The manager's must reduce the tags issued to 25% of what they used to be. This reduces oppurtunities, license sales and hunter satisfaction (generally, unless you get a tag and kill a big deer over bait). Now a manager has to be concerned with all those other things along with the management objectives because his job depends on it. Natual resource agancies are very dependant on license sales for revenue to operate.

Legislating ethics. Lawmakers do it all the time. We might not agree with it, but they do. For an activity like hunting, that is under attack by antihunting activists, this provides a buffer so to speak. Natural resource agencies, game wardens (they actually do like sportsmen and help to defend you believe it or not), can tell the anti- forces these are the laws, and these are so that first hunting is safe and so that it is not just a slaughter.

The limitations also can make hunting more of a challenge I think. If there were no rules and you could do whatever you wanted to take a deer would you enjoy it? Unfortunately, game hogs would probably ensure there are no animals to hunt, but I doubt most of us would enjoy the hunt if there were no rules. Hell, if it was about filling tags why are we on the muzzleloading forum? Lets all get the biggest, baddest, modern, read easy, gun we can use.

Baiting can be counter productive as well. If you are a farmer and have crop damage from deer, why would you want to bait? You are concentrating more deer on your land and giving them more to eat! ::

About CWD. When that showed up in Wisconsin it was the first time it was seen east of the Mississippi. You could hear all the wildlife biologists on the east coast collectively gasp the daythat news broke. It scares them silly, and it should. NY outlawed feeding deer period after that. The reason, and I suspect why you can't bait in CWD areas of WI, is it concentrates deer and makes the spread of the disease easier it is beleived. Mind you not a lot is known about the disease, but it is known it is a serious problem.

Sorry this is so long and thanks for your time. I am just trying to foster debate and encourage thought.

 

[roundball]

Yes, as I mentioned, the question was really one of baiting analysis, separate from the point of fair chase and all the typical aspects that usually attracts us to hunting...just trying to understand the variations of rationale used.

For example, I've watched the NC herd size continue to grow over the years to it's present levels of well over the one million mark in spite of efforts to control it...we have over 1000 deer/auto collisions per month, over 12,000 per year...and those are just the ones that get reported to insurance companies...(18 wheelers hardly notice the impact)

DNR's response has been to keep increasing the number of tags each year and we're now up to six which is great cause I live to deer hunt, but if the average hunter only takes one deer a year, it doesn't matter if tags are increased to 4, then 5, then 6, etc, cause they don't get filled anyway, and the herd keeps growing.

Deer congregate in crop fields every night of the year while we're sleeping...and at many food natural food sources as well...not sure how much additional spread of disease there would be if a bag of corn was scattered in a cutover cornfield for a couple weeks longer than normal in a whole year.

I view a good dove shoot completely different from big game hunting...don't know anyone who really sets out to go after doves on the basis of fair chase or any equal footing compared to deer or bear hunting...studying, learning, etc.
A dove shoot is predominantly a hunting opportunity that is far more about "shooting" than it is "hunting".

There may be something to the idea that baiting is held in check out of a PR concern for the general public as they might not view it on a strict basis of harvesting allowed bag limits in the context of wildlife management...dunno

 

[Keith]

DNR's response has been to keep increasing the number of tags each year and we're now up to six which is great cause I live to deer hunt, but if the average hunter only takes one deer a year, it doesn't matter if tags are increased to 4, then 5, then 6, etc, cause they don't get filled anyway, and the herd keeps growing.

Some places in NY have similar problems. It is theoritically possible to get 13 tags where I live between bow, gun and muzzloader seasons, 11 of them doe tags. Most hunters get 4 to 6 tags.

There may be something to the idea that baiting is held in check out of a PR concern for the general public as they might not view it on a strict basis of harvesting allowed bag limits in the context of wildlife management...dunno

There are probably a lot of laws that cna be viewed that way, at least partially. Baiting is definately has a PR problem, look how often it is attacked by people trying to outlaw it. This is not just becasue they want to outlaw all hunting, but also because it is an easy sell to voters. Even many hunters don't like it.

 

[cayugad]

Keith your correct.. the explaination of why no baiting in the CWD area's are, it will bring the animals into closer contact with each other increasing the risk of spreading the disease.

Our problem is the deer herd got away from us. Years ago hunters in certain areas of the state were allowed all the tags they wanted as long as does were taken. It was a great way to fill the freezer with meat for the winter. As you guys discussed the problem was a lot of hunters will not shoot does. They flat out refuse. We now have what is called earn-a-buck programs. You have to shoot a doe first before you can hunt a buck...

Like Roundball was saying... the car deer accidents were terrible. Officers some evenings seems to run from one car deer accident to another...

 

[gordy]

Been away for awhile so havn;t been doing much posting! As to bait or not to bait? I have used natural bait over the years,dead game animals ,a cow that wondered into a brush area and died,apple orchards on old abandoned farmsteads and operateing orchards where I had permission.As far as paying to set up in a tree stand over a garbage bait I doubt I would do that! Useing bait or chum is not a new concept.The idea of hunting as a competitive spot or game is what bothers me more.To me hunting was kind of a private interaction between myself and the game being hunted,the idea that I needed to show-off or bragg about the size of the antlers or length of the beard,or number of birds shot in one hunt turns me off.There have been many hunts over the years that would be considered failures by many because I bagged no game,just getting out in the woods and fields and observeing scrapes, tracks,bedding grounds Etc.is as enjoyable to me as filling all the tags issued.I enjoy shooting and gathering the game also but I'm not crushed if I come home with an empty bag. It's unfortuneate that so many young hunters of today will never really know what a joy hunting can be. Gordy

 

[bob1961]

i think you can't put anything out within 30 days before you hunt the area....when i took my son to hunters ed i asked the game warden bout that and he told the class that you can't put anything out within 30 days of the start of the bowseason....i have a farmer friend that dumps a big pile of cow corn from the silelow just before sept....so that he is outside of the 30 days and it's legal....not sure bout the licks though can't prove when they were put out i guess.........................bob

 

[kentucky bucky]

I don't care what someone else does to make their turkey go gobble, but some of the so-called "hunting" I see on the outdoor channel doesn't interest me in the least. They would close up the farm in bankruptcy if everybody thought the way I do. First of all, they sit in a "house" that they loosely call a blind. It is bigger than our hunting cabin! :haha: They are covered from head to toe in the latest high tech camo pattern, including face mask and they are hunting over what look like cattle feeders. They are lined up in nice comfy chairs with their rifles sitting on the rest in front of them. Any evening at the same time, the feeders release the food and the deer show up. If you sat in the house any evening you could see the same deer. Even so, when the deer show up they get all excited as if they have really done something. They take their mega-eargasplitten 300 ultrasquat magnum, and shoot the deer. I don't have a problem with that, just don't call it hunting. I'm like Ted Nugent in that if you just want to kill something, become a chicken farmer. I wouldn't hunt if this was all there was! :imo:

The above opinion doesn't pertain to disabled hunters!

 

[wolf]

Even so, when the deer show up they get all excited as if they have really done something. They take their mega-ergasplitten 300 ultrasquat magnum, and shoot the deer.

You left out the part where the "guide" (the guy who led him to the blind) congratulates the "hunter" for a GREAT SHOT! The hunter then thanks the guide for the greatest hunting experience he's ever had.

It's more like having the local butcher point out a good steak in the cold case than it is hunting. But, meat is meat! Come to think of it, I wonder if those guys actually take the meat home?

 

[Claude Mathis]

Come to think of it, I wonder if those guys actually take the meat home?

Based on some of the shows I've seen, I doubt that those guys would want to get any blood on their $400 camo suit.

(I know, that was a cheap shot, but I couldn't help myself). :sorry: :redface:

 

[kentucky bucky]

As I said, I don't care if every other deer hunter hunts that way, but I can't help thinking that it turns off alot of potential hunters that may be watching those shows. Even the more normal hunting shows are geared around sell, sell, sell. They can't say I spotted a nice buck through my scope, they give the make and model of the scope, the B&C score of the buck, and yes even you could kill a B&C buck here at the Deerslayer Buck Ranch Emporium (killthembigolebucks.com.), and the deer attractant's formulation. Then they shoot the buck, locating it with a Infrared Gamefinder 6000 and drag it back with a "Billy-Bob's" deerdrag-o-matic. This one outfit even had a French type chef cooking the meat!

 

[roundball]

Completely agree...it's all about money...about the same way the nascar drivers are when they're interviewed...

"...well, the Tide, Hershey, Texaco, Singular, Bellsouth, Chevy was runnin' real good today with the Goodyear tires, Hurst shifter, Ammco transmission, and Quaker state oil..."
::

 

[Keith]

... I can't help thinking that it turns off alot of potential hunters that may be watching those shows.

I like a few of those shows, but I think that don't put fortha good image of sportsmen. PETA could use some of that stuff in campaigns against us.
I'm not squeamish, but I think shows and videos with "dramatic kill shots" are not exactly good advertisements for hunting either.

 

[gmww]

I've hunted various game using different styles. I've hunted Black bear in BC, CANADA where baiting is not allowed. I've hunted Texas in the Hill country area where feeders are used. I've hunted behind hounds after hogs in Hawaii.

They way I see it, the issued of Hunting is what the dispute is about. One of the tactics used by the Anti-hunting, anti-gun is to divide and conquer.

If you hunt behind a dog for upland birds isn't that similar to hound hunting after who knows what. If you use a worm or a fly to catch fish isn't that baiting.

Bottom line don't fall into trap of "my way is better than your way or I disagree with your way". They are hoping that we will not support each other when they come to take your hunting style away.

It's the same tactic they've been using about guns. We only want to ban "Assault weapons". If you believe that I got a bridge from the west coast to Hawaii I want to sell you.

Hunters need to support each other. OK I'll get off my soap box now. :curse:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Hunters need to support each other.

I think we do support each other, we just don't agree 100 percent on everything. eace:

None of our discussions about styles of hunting, what ignition your gun has, traditional vs. modern, period correctness, etc. can harm us. We're stronger than that.

Yes, we disagree sometimes, but God help our common enemy. :thumbsup:

 

[GobblerKnob]

Amen, Claude! Thus endeth the lesson! :thumbsup:

 

[rrgr40]

Around here, what I usually see is people baiting within range of their tree stand condos because they are to damn lazy to actually get off their behinds and hunt the deer. Then they go around bragging about the big buck they shot. It just ticks me off to no end. How hard is it to follow the rules anyway. In Virginia it is unlawful to hunt over bait anywhere. Personally I don't believe in it.

 

[roundball]

Is there a simple answer to the question of why there are such different views on baiting?

Well, reviewing the thread, I guess the answer to my question is:

There's not a simple answer as to why there are such different views about baiting.

:shocking:

 

[brushbuster]

:m2c:
while ethically i agree with claude and my fellow hunters,
down where i live in south central texas there are a lot of small ranchetts :huh: :what: which feed year around sooooo
if you don't feed, chances are you wont even see a deer let alone take one.I am content to take one maybe two a year.some times i don't take any but that's o.k. i just love getting out and looking around.

:imo:

 

A prime example of this is my boss' ranch--he has 2300 acres buried in the middle of a much larger ranch (10s of thousands of acres)in south Texas. He feeds deer year round. Every year he and his relatives and guests take numerous huge deer off that land--many more than the land would normally hold. Obviously, deer from all over the bigger spread eat at his place!!! I have been there (quail hunting) and have never seen as many big deer any where else!

:m2c:
while ethically i agree with claude and my fellow hunters,
down where i live in south central texas there are a lot of small ranchetts :huh: :what: which feed year around sooooo
if you don't feed, chances are you wont even see a deer let alone take one.I am content to take one maybe two a year.some times i don't take any but that's o.k. i just love getting out and looking around.

:imo:

 

[crockett]

For what it is worth, I'll put in my two cents. What is bait? It is something to attract an animal. Some times it is incredibly easy to call in a Spring gobbler. One morning I walked about seventy five yards from my car, gave a little yelp, got an instant reply and a gobbler running right at me a minute later. How much "Hunting" was that? I have hunted over bait for bears in Canada and was the only one that came home with a filled tag. Everyone else paid good money and got nothing, bait aside. It is an ethical issue. Hunting deer over bean fields and seeing thirty deer an evening isn't really a wilderness experience. A lot of people think hunting deer with hounds is unsporting but a lot of time the hounds pick up on a doe or inferior buck and the day is a bust. Calibou hunting can be more an exercise in shooting than hunting. The debate will go on forever but I think each situation at hand must be judged individually. If the success rate for experienced hunters is only 10 to 20% then the hunting being done is probably fair.