Conflicting views on baiting

[shmrck1]

roundball,
boy did you open up a can of worms!!!
this has been one of the most informative forums i have read. it seems to be a subject everyone has a thought on.
although i have harvested many whitetails it is certainly
not the reason that i hunt. it is just being in the woods with my son and friends. sure i use camo and scent blockers
but i have never hunted over a bait of anytype. to tell the truth some of my best hunts :imo: there were no game harvested.
snake-eyes :m2c: eace: :thumbsup:

 

[madstone]

Raven,
Pour it to it!! Your being opiniated is your right and Any one who criticizes you for expressing you opinion loudly, and proudly, is practicing "poor gunsmithin' ".
I have nothing against shooting a very large, or very far away creature with 50Bmg. I DO have a problem with bullets going "where they ain't supposed to go. One's instinct, or training, or even temper might cause one to shoot back after just a little of this. Never shot at (Whew!) with a 50BMG, either, but sent a few, very few, 50's the other way. Couldn't say if I hit anything or not. Didn't look much! They tear up so much stuff, if used en masse that the results are almost certain!
Gosh, Raven where do you hunt that others can, or will, do this. I knew the woods/plains/mtn's, were filled with booze crazed idiots, but didn't know it was that bad.
I never would hunt but with mighty few people. ML shooting ranges I DO trust a little. But, being around a lot of average fellows with guns makes me nervous. I don't have many friends left who I would go in the woods with. I made a lot of folks wonder when I made excuses for not hunting with them. Those that remained friends long figured it out and were not insulted too bad. I never would hunt with kids, though I taught lots to shoot, reload, etc. This all comes from "foolin with guns alot". The laws of probability build up and if one uses guns enough, one day... Most average shooters tell me they NEVER had a gun go off when they didn't mean for it to. Let me be opinionated and say they didn't fool with guns much! It happens, as you know.
I just always made sure the hole in the barrel was never allowed to point at something a hole wouldn't hurt too bad!
The fellow didn't say, specifically what his MOS was, they probably sent him a nice letter and later someone shouted Infantry, but he sure is incompetent. And dangerous! A friend saw him "doing something strange" to a 22-250 700 rem bolt. He was making a hole, where the extractor pin used to be, to put a huge "lag screw"in. Said they guy kept blowing extractors out of the bolt!!! Said he was getting 4250+ fps! Eeek!!! Heck, I wanted his name so I could get an insurance policy on him!
Sorry for the divergence into ctg guns. Just hope the fellow with the 50 knows where the bullet is going AFTER it knocks down an elk, moose or Grizzly and a few trees behind him. You could drill for oil with one of those! Bet it spooks the game that survives! I wouldn't mind having a 50 to shoot that "charging grapefruit" (bears heart or brain?) that is in one of the other forum threads! (Baiting Game?)
Seems like this fellow had all kinds of certificates from small arms schools and etc. My best friend was a local gunsmith for more than 50 years. He died years ago and I hoped this fellow had promise. He couldn't disassemble even very common guns. He has good eyes but is file crazy and doesn't point they eyes, nor brain, in the right direction. He usually files the right part, but the wrong side! Maybe he will learn?
Keep it coming, Raven. I babble too much! :yakyak:

 

[Keith]

On the link about CWD. I noticed the link is to an organic foods website. Be very wary of information from the organic foods industry. They're notorious for using scare tactics to sell their products. Some of the things said by the organic foods industry is outright BS.

I'll agree the there are those that have an agenda to make CWD over blown. I'm just the messanger. I still can't find the artical I read in one of my many hunting magazines which gave the similar study on CWD information.

People trying to sell things and they claims they make are always suspect. Having said that in the spread of CWD and Mad Cow Disease, very similar disease found in ... cows, (bet you didn't know that? :winking, has been related to contaminated food. Some food it is beleived had animal parts mixed in, and this could have caused the disease to spread to uninfected individuals. For that reason domestic livestock can't be fed food containing animal protein.

 

[Keith]

There are parameters that should be followed. Ethics, sportsmanship, stewardship, safety. I don't want to take a .50BMG bullet while I'm hunting because some clown 1,000 yards away didn't see me. That weapon requires a solid backstop. In my opinion, hunting is not an "anything goes" undertaking. I've already had way too many bullets whiz by me from some idiot not watching what he's doing. I hope everyone supports the 2nd Amendment. But owning a gun doesn't give someone a blank check for behavior. They need to be safe and considerate of others. It's these slob hunters and slob shooters that are ruining it for the rest of us.

Amen. I was at a County Sportsmen's Federation Meeting this last week with the manager of a state park explaining an incident last fall where a hunter was wounded by another. We wanted some input as to what could be done to make hunting here safer. This place does have some issues believe me. Unfortunately, the attitude of a couple of these guys was that it wasn't the shooters fault he couldn't see the victim, therefore he wasn't responsible for his target and what was beyond. Another, thought giving in anything only helped the anti- forces, and that throwing a bunch of statistics about how safe hunting is would solve everything.
I hate this fact, but it is a fact hunters and gun owners can be our own worst enemies with stupid behavior. I've rattled along long enough. :m2c:

 

Well guys here in lies our problem.
The 2nd amendment dose not protect hunting in any way, we could be banned from legal hunting and still have the right to keep and bare arms .Yet many people see the 2nd amendment reasoning being based on hunting not on the ability of the people to assure a free state and IMO this is the way we will lose the 2nd amendment as once hunting is gone our guns will be next.

We as hunters do not get along as a group, rifle hunters don

 

[RussB]

Well said Captchee.
I liked it well enough to read it over a few times.
Russ

 

[madstone]

Missed yours and Captchee's notes. :agree:
Maybe on the periphery? of "baiting"? For some anything goes for hunting. Divide them into nitwits and guys, like me, who have occasionally Bpowderburned the sides of deer being so close. I got so lazy, and infirm with arthritis, I wouldn't shoot deer unless they were in the road so I could back my truck up, use a hay bale to act as a middle step, and roll him up in the back of my truck. This all within 200 yd of my home! (Many chided me that "that aint huntin'"). Did I bait them? I ain't sure. I kept a salt lick going and occasionally puored out apples, etc. The old fellows, like me, from rural backward areas, have taken pretty bad advantage of critters in our days. Those younger will not see things the way we did. We, alas, didn't pay much attn to seasons (the best time for harvesting some critters, for certain purposes, differed with sound game mgt), bag limits or whose land we were on. We all knew our neighbors and who hunted where. If you saw someone easing into your squirrel "holler" you probably eased out and into another good spot. (Not like that anymore)
How do we balance recruiting anyone who will pull a trigger, or those who don't mind being around us, and maximize our voting base with almost PC inclusion while keeping the drunks, cheaters, 50BMG shooters and generally foolish at bay? Exactly like we are doing, in here.
I've been disturbed by the magnum mania for decades! Overpenetration is not very sporting if you are penetrating anything but dirt after it exits the target!
I've been mad at NRA for 30 years but still contribute so they will help preserve my rights.( The 2nd amendment was to protect us from our own gov't partly and as you said has nothing to do with hunting!)

 

[RussB]

I knew a master armorer who didn't know how to "load" anything but those weapons used when he served! He took that colorado gunsmith course and is now butchering guns at exhorbitant prices! Can't blame it on the army, though!
:imo:

It has already been mentioned that the Army has no Master Armorer...unless we are refering to depot level, where well trained "civilians" do the repair. And they are all "Certified" Gunsmiths.

As a point of interest, there is also no such thing as a "Master Gunsmith", although we are all guilty of using the term. It is more a term of respect, or endearment for a gunsmith's skills....and gets used daily!
Gunsmithing does NOT require the trade level progression of training as in a "journeyman" or "entry level" to progress to the next higher level, although it is preferable that one serves in this position before formal training.

There are few, darn few, schools that are training gunsmiths that are state certified through very stringent, fromal training, and graduating with "State" certification.
Colorado has two such schools. Colorado school of Trades, and Trinidad State College. I don't think either of these schools could be blamed for the fellow butchering guns at exhorbitant prices either.

Having said that, I must say I have seen many good gunsmiths, possibly most of the "good" gunsmiths I have ever know, have never attended any type of "formal" training in the gunsmithing field. Butchers, and gun plumbers, are a dime a dozen! Good gunsmiths are few and far between, trained or not!
Respectfully, Russ

 

[gmww]

Having said that in the spread of CWD and Mad Cow Disease, very similar disease found in ... cows, (bet you didn't know that? :winking, has been related to contaminated food. Some food it is beleived had animal parts mixed in, and this could have caused the disease to spread to uninfected individuals. For that reason domestic livestock can't be fed food containing animal protein.

Actually being from Washington state the home of a documented Mad Cow and eating a rather large steak only miles away from it when they first discovered the Mad Cow I became very aware. ::

Anyway the purpose of the CWD information was based on why they don't allow Baiting in CWD infected area of Wisconson.

http://www.wisinfo.com/postcrescent/news/archive/local_12223174.shtml

The above artical was based on the University of Wisconson tests done with soil and how the infectious prions remained in clay at the top. They believe since in remains at the top of the clay soil and animals congregating and eating feed in that area a transmission may occure. Based on that Wisconson banned baiting in that area.

"The state Department of Natural Resources established an 874-square-mile eradication zone around Mount Horeb, where CWD was first found, in an effort to prevent the disease from spreading by killing all the deer in that area.

The state Natural Resources Board issued an emergency ban on baiting and feeding deer Monday in 22 southern counties, believing the practices artificially congregate deer and could help transmit the disease."

I totally agree that as hunters and fisherman too we need to agree to disagree but support each other when the Anti-folks come a knocking. I've seen first hand how we all came to gether in defeat them. In 1997 the Anti's tried to pass an Initiative in Washington called 676. After the word got out, it got defeated 71%-29%. Remember Washington is a very liberal state. :cry:

Here is an excert from an artical about it.

"....gun owners quickly realized the 13 page, 26 section ballot measure was a minefield of civil rights threats that had to be defeated: Not only would every handgun owner and adult member of their household be required to pass a handgun safety course (at about $160 per person), but they would also have to be licensed with the state. If the licensed owner left the home, the spouse was considered in possession of the firearm and could be subject to prosecution if not licensed.

That was just the beginning of I-676: stalking victims and threatened women were not exempt and could not get a gun immediately for self protection. Parents could be prosecuted if they taught their children firearms safety just for letting a child handle a handgun. The bureaucracy required to license the 1 million handgun owners in Washington would have been staggering..." The whole artical can be found here:

http://www.ccrkba.org/pub/rkba/gt-report/gt-report_035.html

I also agree that there should be some sort of common sense limit to what we shoot at game animals. 50 BMG on a deer or Moose? Some fellas feel if I can see it, I can shoot it. How about trying to find it afterwards? Can you imagine trying to find a downed Elk or Moose you shot from a mile out? And if its that far, how do you know what might be behind it? Like my car, residence, ME? :curse:

The anti's took away trapping fur animals and cougar/bear hunting with hounds here. Now we have cougar/bear sightings in towns where it was unheard of? Rather than realize its because of the ban on hound hunting, the anti's blame human encroachment? They just don't get it. Could it be that Cougars/Bears are not afraid of dogs because they no longer associate barking dogs with being hunted down by em?

Getting off the soap box now. :boohoo:

 

[Ravenx]

I think that we, as hunters, owe not only an obligation to the integrity of the sport, but to our children and grandchildren as well. I sure wouldn't want my grandkids saying, "Gee, if only your generation had hunted a little more responsibly, I could go hunting myself..." I think I'm preaching to the choir here, as everyone I see on this board embodies the true spirit of hunting and are fine, upstanding folks. So, there are some clowns out there that are shooting animals with .50BMG and I shudder to think what's going to be made of that once the antis find out. And they will find out one day. PETA has what they term "undercovers". These folks surf the net, read hunting magazines, hang out at hunting and gun shops, just listening and collecting intel. A lot of what they see is useless to them because the average American sees it and goes, "So?" But seeing the .50BMG armed hunter, that would certainly be a propaganda coup for them. Don't get me wrong. I support the right of people to own and shoot the .50BMG---but not at game. To me, it's an irresponsible use of the weapon and it's just asking for a serious accident. I think we also run the risk of getting drawn into a dangerous circular argument in regards to the 2nd Amendment. If people keep touting the 2nd as being for hunting when they use the term "sporting purpose" (which is one of the reasons why some people claim the .50BMG as a "hunting rifle"), then we intrinsically tie guns to hunting. The problem is, most, if not all, of the anti-gunners are also anti-hunters and vice versa. Once they ban hunting, you won't need the guns, right? They could go along with the "sporting use" argument and concentrate on banning hunting. Then, you don't need the guns, eh? You said so yourself when you claimed such-and-such guns as "sporting use". That's why legitimizing the possession of a .50BMG should not be done by claiming it as a "hunting tool". It's simply asinine. The most neophyte liberal straight out of the Academy of Cranial-Rectal Impaction will see right through that argument. It's a weak argument for the weapon. Just say, the 2nd says we can own it, end of story, cue theme song, roll credits. The "sporting use", if one must, is target shooting. That is a sport. That's why there is target shooting in the Olympics. But the people that claim the .50BMG as a "hunting weapon" are screwing us on two fronts: hunting and gun ownership.

 

[madstone]

Good point on loose use of term master armorer! That's a very old term isn't it? Seems like I remember a term I can't pronounce: arms artificier? And I "talk" too much! :yakyak:
Bet the gunsmith school's can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear? Certainly the army couldn't. Can't blame either for this one fellow! Nor for the fellow shooting a 50 at elk? Hard for me to trust gunsmiths younger than the gun I want worked on! See, I am being unfair stereotyping modern smiths! I'm sure there are some great ones out there!
Isn't it against the law to hunt with a 50 BMG?? Wonder if the gov't would insist on hollow points as more humane? But, if it is legal and this citizen wants to shoot it, great! I'll only fuss if he doesn't watch his backstop. Or if he calls a press conference and invites Sarah Brady, now that Raven clued us in.
Of course he may think WE are the threat to the 2nd amendment with all that dangerous blackpowder that Osama bin L would like to use! Can't you hear Dan Rather: "It is even more volatile than smokeless powder commonly used in even military bullets"!! or "Most americans are unaware that these deadly weapons (showing a picture of a flintlock rifle) were designed to more easily kill men at over a football field away."!! "Surely anyone who needs more than a musket to kill an elk isn't much of a sportsman?"
I guess I said so much about this as I have a soft spot in my heart for veterans, 50BMG's and
ultra freedom.
The term uber-commando being used for any veteran was really what did it. Any even unintended comparison of a GI to an "uber-anything" makes me red! Guess I'm too old!! I still think of real bad uber-kommandos the like of which we hopefully will never again see on this planet. Surely they are all in hell by now! If a fellow has to snipe Iraqi's, or Afghans he may have earned the right to hunt with anything he wants. I certainly don't think I have the right to keep him from doing so If he wants to! Course I DO defend Raven's right to express his opinion and feel any way he wants to about use of this gun for hunting. Yours, too, I need some direction sometimes. Correction, too! :agree:

 

[madstone]

GMTWW
It's where the bloodthirsty, beer guzzling hunters, armed with assault rifles (flintlocks) hunt MORE with their hounds after the ban! They, of course are found only in the quaint rural areas. The game, poor Bambi, Boo-boo and Yogi, are then driven first into the suburbs seeking picanic baskets. There the same hunters slaughter them on our streets with PU trucks and gas-guzzling SUV's! They are thus driven even into our city parks. The only way to solve this problem is education and distribution, w/o mother bear's consent, of bear and cougar condoms! Also, common sense dictates that we begin, in the 21st century, to take a serious look at how we use our rural areas. Perhaps the forests, after all, belong to the bears and cougars, not the "Billy-bobs" (Zoom in on Yogi-Fade to me being chased by that charging grizzly bear grapefruit!!! Fred Flinstone spinner feet on me and bongos. ShoutingI NEEEED A 50 BMGEEEEEE as I am run to ground by Yogi and rocky Racoon)
:yakyak:

 

[Ravenx]

Madstone, as I said, I served in the army myself. My term "uber commando" is in regards to the thousands of Internet Commandos out there. You know, I was a small arms repairman. But most of the people I see on the net are SEALS, Rangers, Special Forces, SOCOM, snipers, or some other elite team. Well, I only repaired some of those guys weapons. Where are the guys who cooked those guys meals in the mess hall? Processed their paychecks? Handled their ammo? You never see those "unsung vets" on the net. Or, maybe you do---they all just say they were Rangers instead of admitting they were doing combat rappel insertions of meatballs into spaghetti. To me, those clowns insult vets more than anything else. First, by claiming to be something they're not. Second, where is the shame in fixing stuff or driving a tank carrier? Someone has to do it. And, game laws apply to everyone, combat vets, military vets, or civilians. No exceptions. Citizenship and its responsibilities are not predicated upon veteran status. No offense meant by "uber commando".

My point about ethical hunting remains the same. "Law" is what you HAVE to follow. "Ethics" are what you SHOULD follow, even when no one is looking.

 

[gmww]

I recall one of those tree hugging bear loving fellas decided to commune with his girlfriend in grizzly country not to long ago. You might say he fed them well. ::

NOW THAT WAS BAITING! :shocking:

 

[madstone]

Raven,
Sorry I misunderstood the term! I kinda agree that a 50 BMG hunter makes us look bad, but heck! You aint seen me, thank God for this medium!! To paraphrase a movie's lines "I'm the sort that gives that sort a bad name!".
I'd never even thought of it as a hunting gun but wanted one since sometimes in the 60's? when someone did a gun article on a handmade 50BMG falling block single shot! I would think the state fish and wildlife folks would not allow it's use! But if they did... I'd say get his vote and encourage him to be really discreet.
Of course you are right about the braggarts. Most do what they are told. The real heroes are dead. These and the mothers! Anyone who maligns poor Willie and Joe, or the guys who the army in it's infinite wisdom assigned to other endeavors, deserves to be called an uber something!
Seems like we are pretty well saturated with SOG's and snipers, SEALs aren't we! Personally I'd opt for cook or clerk every time if the other option is being shot at on anything like a regular basis. :m2c: Good point on diff between law and ethics. Never cared for rules much, but try to be ethical. Only oaths were to country and wife. Kept both!

 

[madstone]

Captchee,
Do you really think hunting will survive far into the century? I do hope so, but...
The esteem of one's own kind, like ML's vs ctg gunners, 50BMG shooters and 22's. Opposites only attract in fantasy, sex and magnets? It is natural to hold "the other guy" in contempt. Primitive but natural.
We are fortunate to live in the only country in eternity where Raven, the guy with the 50BMG and I can "fuss" about our different views. Yet when someone outside OUR group attacks Raven will be the one to "rescue" at his own peril, the 50 guy! I hope I'm cooking! :thumbsup:

 

[shmrck1]

Captchee,
what you say is so logical it would be hard to make an argument :imo: eace: :RO:

snake-eyes :thumbsup:

 

No madstone I think maybe we are on the same page.
See I remember a time when a deer tag was 1.50 and elk was 4 dollars. If while setting up your camp you found another

 

[gmww]

The bait hunters and hound hunters must realize that times are changing as well and that we as hunters no long have control, the public now have the say and if hunting is to survive they are the ones we all have to Please/
I grew up hunting from the time I could walk , I will hunt tell the day I die, do I think hunting will last no not in the form we know it and will not include folk like those of us here .. :redface:

Captchee, I hope you don't imply that bait hunters and hound hunters must see the end coming near. Bait hunters and hound hunters as well as ALL hunters need to educate the PUBLIC in order to keep our way of life alive. I would say that as a hunter don't give up! If we don't help each other, soon one by one each of our styles of hunting will be gone.

I don't hound hunt but I will fight to keep it legal. We lost hound hunting in Washington because the public was not educated and some felt, it didn't affect their style of hunting. Its just a matter of time that bird dog (hound) hunting will perish. After all its using a hound on an animal isn't it? I'm sure they will come up with a reason why Muzzle loading is evil.

I teach my kids that Disney is just make believe and for the most part anti hunting. Ever closely watch the message in BAMBI? The Bambi asked his mother why everyone is frieghtened. She says man has come into the woods. They show a shadow of a man carrying a rifle. When I hear of a teacher telling children how hunting is wrong, I have a conversation with that teacher. I ask that they back it up with facts and provide a balanced arguement from a pro-hunting advocate.

When someone I know or don't know tells me the evils of hunting, I defend and educate them (Politely of course) what hunting is all about and what role it plays in the enviroment and local economies. I also point out that hunters and fisherman have put more money and volunteered time towards the enviroment than most so called enviromental groups. We all know the truth, we need to put it out there and support each others way of hunting.

If you can just do one thing for our sport, that's DONT GIVE UP!!! :nono:

 

[madstone]

Captchee,
I never could organize a sentence with more than one concept in it. I just keep typing something till all the words are somewhere! :yakyak:

Your logic, as praised above, is well organized and concise. I used to think hunting and shooting would'nt survive but figure it's a matter of a century or so away. I'll not see it, nor you, but that doesn't mean I don't need to be reminded to do all I can to prolong it's demise for posterity.


I am encouraged at the fervor with which the younkers defend the 2nd amendment! They are ferocious! ML's are the most rabid, I'm proud to say! But then we all got ctg guns at home, we just don't like "mixing them". Like sheep and cattle?

I'd like to approach, gently ( I want Raven there in case my diplomacy fails) the fellow with the 50BMG rifle and ask " Your such an excellent shot, sniper,etc. did you ever try a flintlock? Here, try this... While I have him distracted Raven can roll his scope elevation down so he shoots in the dirt. Course it'll still kill the elk but with great pieces of dirt, rock and debris blasted from in front of him! One or two rounds of this and he will be in here with "us"?

As for baiting, I guess we should all follow the laws and use only the advantage necessary to make sure we don't wound something! The only group of hunters I do despise are the "cripplers". To leave a beast to suffer is uncivilized. Many try to compensate for their lack of hunting time or skills with all the help they can get. Usually they think this means a magnum of some sort banging away at the critters' rump! A 50 is the extreme of this, I suppose. 3-4K$'s of all the right stuff, touted by the mag-writers, doesn't help too much either. (" Be still, dummy, and you don't need all that cammy-flodge!") What worries me is I can't see them! The critters done spotted them, but my eyes are aging. But it sure helps the Pittman-Robertson funds! Wonder if the 4-wheelers are subject to PR tax? I hope so given their prices and coverage in the trade mags!
:agree: