Conical Terminal Performance Research

[TheMadYankee]

Ok fine but if they were really really bad it would be common knowledge by now.
I'd be more concerned about them moving off the charge over an extended day/s hunt.

Again, experience has shown me that isn't always the case. As I'm brand new at this side of muzzy what can sometimes be common knowledge is unknown to me. And I've learned not to trust ad copy if you catch my drift.

The bullet unseating is a potential issue I'm aware of. However given the rifling twist I'm not guessing PRB would be a great option for this particular gun. I intend to carry the gun during one of our scouting expeditions (as it will be bear season anyways) and I'll do some ramrod checks to investigate.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Again, experience has shown me that isn't always the case. As I'm brand new at this side of muzzy what can sometimes be common knowledge is unknown to me. And I've learned not to trust ad copy if you catch my drift.

The bullet unseating is a potential issue I'm aware of. However given the rifling twist I'm not guessing PRB would be a great option for this particular gun. I intend to carry the gun during one of our scouring expeditions (as it will be bear season anyways) and I'll do some ramrod checks to investigate.

You'll do just fine. You'd also be surprised by just what has been slain by a ball.

 

[stikshooter]

You'd be amazed at what I've seen fail to properly penetrate and or leave nigh un trackable blood trails due to shoddy construction. Plus having realistic ideas as to how various bullets perform is useful. Without mentioning subjects that are verboten on this board, I've seen certain "conicals" which 100 percent did not "plow on through," rather they entered one one side and exploded. Not my preferred method of hunting any big game and certainly not a scenario I'd like to try on a bear.

That only happens with either too soft lead for the game or distance (OR) to many FPS for design of conical ,not happening if you give up some speed and instead use your head (think of yardage and proper sighting ) for trajectory @ BP speeds 12-1500 fps and not smokeless speeds ! If I shoot a deer in limited sight distance I use cast balls/conicals with BHN of 12-14 on a lee tester (harder than cast) but same projectile @150 yds still gets good penetration with more powder charge and not destroying meat . Same projectile with softer alloy at close range destroys lots of meat and less penetration because of poor alloy selection (NOT) poor construction just poor selection of material !!! If you don't make your own all of the above is not relevant cause someone else supplies the material ,a good reason for rollin your own /Ed

 

[mtfishn]

First (of several) elk taken with a/.54 cal. Hawken (GPR) kit gun, 1/48 twist was using a maxi-ball slug, about 400grains wt over 140gr FFG, at about 70 yds trotting. The bullet entered near the last rib angling forward and exited the ribs just behind the off-side shoulder. It did not exit the hide, but slid forward and came to rest about 8" forward under the hide. This pure lead bullet was about 1/4" thick and nearly 3/4" diameter after penetrating over 40" of elk. I was a bit naive back then and I no longer see the need for that much powder. That load killed on one end ...and maimed on the other!

 

[Spikebuck]

My experience with conicals is all in .54 in slower twist 1-65 Pedersoli barrels.

Hornady GP were what worked for me (as far as conicals in those barrels). All but one whitetail I shot with these was a pass through at ranges from under 20 to 100 yards, give or take. Only ever had one that stayed in which was on a 7 1/2 yo whitetail buck that exceeded 200# dressed weight. 89 yards with 90gr of 777. Penetrated bone, blew the heart apart, penetrated bone again and was a lump under the skin on the other side. He bucked at the shot and bolted 30 yards uphill. Pics attached. Mushroomed slug only lost about 2-3 grs of a 425 gr conical. Side note: -12F ambient air temp with 15 to 20 mph winds when I took that buck, so extreme conditions. Hope that gives you a view of "terminal performance."

Frankly, though, my experience with my .54's and round ball has been every bit as satisfying. I've taken a lot of large northern whitetail from near point blank to as far as 115 yards with a PRB and now that's exclusively what I hunt with.

 

[SDSmlf]

Ok fine but if they were really really bad it would be common knowledge by now.
I'd be more concerned about them moving off the charge over an extended day/s hunt.

I have a couple of guns that I would guess apparently have slightly larger bores towards the breech and conicals easily move off the powder charge after loading. You can actually hear them clunk as they move, for lack of a better word, as you raise and lower the muzzle. I don’t see the problem with patched roundballs or paper patched bullets in the same gun.

Know your gun.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I used to be a fan of the Hornady geat plains bullets in 50cal 410 gr.
They were very accurate. I shot some deer with them and soon I was less impressed. The Hornady bullets are pudding soft and that rapid expansion was reducing penetration. These pictures are Hornady 410 gr. The deer was hit at 150 yards. At that distance the speed was lower but the bullets were in my opinion overexpanded.
The 410 gr bullet was discontinued. The only one in 50 now is the 385 gr hollow point. I can't in good conscience recommend that bullet for any type of hunting except varmints.

 

[Idaho Ron]

This bullet is my own home made 458 gr Lee 500S&W bullet. Slightly hardened, Paper patched, and sized.
This bullet broke the shoulder on a bull elk took out the spine, and was found under the skin on the off side.
It only lost 4 grains after breaking that much bone.
Better bullets are worth finding.

 

[TheMadYankee]

All good info! The over expansion of Hornady Great Plains was something I was concerned about. It seems to me like Hornady got a little over excited when they carved out the expansion chamber. Granted, many of the examples so far pertain to elk. I've never hunted elk, but my understanding is they are a bit tougher than what i typically deal with. Either way, bullets like the No Excuses line are definitely on my radar.

On that note, has anyone had any experience with the Parker conicals? The traditional hunter has my notice. 440 grains may be a bit on the heavy side for deer, but I'm winders if the hollow point on it might balance things out a bit.

 

[doulos]

Ive killed deer with No excuses conicals. I shot a medium sized buck at 125 yards with a .50 cal 460 grain No Excuses over 110 grains FFG Goex. Slug broke both front scapulas and exited. DRT. Killed a huge doe with a 385 grain .45 cal No excuses over 100 grains FFG . 40 yard shot . Bullet broke far side shoulder deer hobbled 20 yards and died. Ive had similar experiences with TC Maxi balls
Heavy projectiles penetrate. Period.
You usually are not stopping any projectile with a weight of 300 grains or more from passing through a deer with 80-100 grains of powder 95%of the time.

 

[TheMadYankee]

Ive killed deer with No excuses conicals. I shot a medium sized buck at 125 yards with a .50 cal 460 grain No Excuses over 110 grains FFG Goex. Slug broke both front scapulas and exited. DRT. Killed a huge doe with a 385 grain .45 cal No excuses over 100 grains FFG . 40 yard shot . Bullet broke far side shoulder deer hobbled 20 yards and died. Ive had similar experiences with TC Maxi balls
Heavy projectiles penetrate. Period.
You usually are not stopping any projectile with a weight of 300 grains or more from passing through a deer with 80-100 grains of powder 95%of the time.

Good info. I suppose I should specify that I'm not overly concerned with penetration regarding Whitetails as I know they're not particularly tough. I'm more thinking what might be suitable for lage close range black bears but might not be super-mega-overkill for deer.

I'm a pain, I know .

 

[Spikebuck]

I'm more thinking what might be suitable for lage close range black bears but might not be super-mega-overkill for deer.

First, within reason you cannot "overkill" anything.

Second...you're thinking way too much. You could tie yourself into knots with all kinds of "what ifs."

Work up an accurate load and use it. Whatever you decide on for bear will kill a deer.

 

[Bushfire]

You could always use round balls. They kill well.

 

[Spikebuck]

You could always use round balls. They kill well.

Quite true. I went exclusively to round ball because at the ranges I shoot, they do the job every bit as well as a conical and with far less recoil.

That said, I think the OP said he has a fast twist barrel, so a conical is going to be a better choice. He just needs to buy some, shoot them, see what works best, and go hunting!!! He's asking for our inputs, but doesn't like any of it...which is fine...so personal experimentation is the best option!

 

[TheMadYankee]

Quite true. I went exclusively to round ball because at the ranges I shoot, they do the job every bit as well as a conical and with far less recoil.

That said, I think the OP said he has a fast twist barrel, so a conical is going to be a better choice. He just needs to buy some, shoot them, see what works best, and go hunting!!! He's asking for our inputs, but doesn't like any of it...which is fine...so personal experimentation is the best option!

You're quite right on both counts regarding round balls. I've seen firsthand that they are quite suitable when used appropriately. But as you observed, I mentioned that my barrel features a 1:20 twist rate (and my research indicates this would imply shallow cut rifling), so this wasn't intended as a round ball shooter.

I've stated repeatedly that this all good info, so I'm not sure where you gat that from.

 

[Mad Professor]

I have a Renegade with a 50 cal 1-28 GM barrel.

Years ago I picked a 720 rd case of Buffalo Bullets for $40. They are 385gr and similar to Hornady GP bullets.

I found 70 80 and 90gr (maxload) FFg, with the bullet seated on a wonder wad all shot excellent. Recoil was noticeably more when you went to 90gr, so I settled on 80gr.

Same as my Avatar, 5 shots at 50 yds. I sighted 2" high so it's about on at 75 and just a bit low at 100.

Have not used that rifle on game but I'm sure the load will give a pass through.

 

[Mad Professor]

I used to be a fan of the Hornady geat plains bullets in 50cal 410 gr.
They were very accurate. I shot some deer with them and soon I was less impressed. The Hornady bullets are pudding soft and that rapid expansion was reducing penetration. These pictures are Hornady 410 gr. The deer was hit at 150 yards. At that distance the speed was lower but the bullets were in my opinion overexpanded.
The 410 gr bullet was discontinued. The only one in 50 now is the 385 gr hollow point. I can't in good conscience recommend that bullet for any type of hunting except varmints.

Ron I've used the Hornady GP in my 58/525gr (owch!) and 54/425gr. They do flatten out but I've rarely recovered one from a deer. That mushrooming just like a PRB means the energy is getting transfered. As long as the bullet gets to vitals that's fine, even without a pass through.

Were not getting pass troughs?

I shot one deer up close with my 58, thought I missed as deer ran into a swamp, and a small 4" dia tree fell over behind the deer. WTF?

I found lots of hair where the deer was standing. Tracking deer in the snow after first bound huge spray of blood, and I guess with the last couple of breaths too, piled up about 20 yds later. Killed the tree too.

 

[TheMadYankee]

Ron I've used the Hornady GP in my 58/525gr (owch!) and 54/425gr. They do flatten out but I've rarely recovered one from a deer. That mushrooming just like a PRB means the energy is getting transfered. As long as the bullet gets to vitals that's fine, even without a pass through.

Were not getting pass troughs?

I shot one deer up close with my 58, thought I missed as deer ran into a swamp, and a small 4" dia tree fell over behind the deer. What??

I found lots of hair where the deer was standing. Tracking deer in the snow after first bound huge spray of blood, and I guess with the last couple of breaths too, piled up about 20 yds later. Killed the tree too.

Interesting. Out of curiosity, were those GPs you were using hollow points or flat nose? As Ron pointed out, the only GPs thar exist now or can be found without casting are hollow points. However, I keep coming across references to flat points. These would be awfully similar in shape, construction, and sectional density to No Excuses 420 grain slugs, which I'm interested in trying.

I do have some 385 Grain 50 cal GPs on hand and the other day decided to actually examine them. One thing I did not realize was that in addition to the hollow point, the base is concave. Presumably this is to aid in obturation in the style of a minie ball, but I wonder if that may detract from integrity.

To give credit to spikebuck, I'm definitely over thinking things. It's kind of what I do . In general I'm aware that all these bullets will "do the job" one way or the other. I suppose I'm just trying to get some realistic idea of how these all operate and perform so that I may plan/adjust accordingly. And of course, testing accuracy will dictate more than most else.

 

[lone hunter]

The TC maxi 350 and Hornaday 385 are both excellent bullets that will perform well for you. Grandson uses 70gr in his 50 and it is devastating on large deer. 70-80 gr powder is a good accuracy range. I'm partial to TC but Hornaday, with the hollow point, might have a slightly larger exit hole.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Ron I've used the Hornady GP in my 58/525gr (owch!) and 54/425gr. They do flatten out but I've rarely recovered one from a deer. That mushrooming just like a PRB means the energy is getting transfered. As long as the bullet gets to vitals that's fine, even without a pass through.

Were not getting pass troughs?

I shot one deer up close with my 58, thought I missed as deer ran into a swamp, and a small 4" dia tree fell over behind the deer. What??

I found lots of hair where the deer was standing. Tracking deer in the snow after first bound huge spray of blood, and I guess with the last couple of breaths too, piled up about 20 yds later. Killed the tree too.

I know you won't understand because you don't shoot the Lee 500S&W bullet, but the difference is outstanding. The bullets make a loud WHOMP when they hit. Deer always are taken off their feet. All of the elk I have shot were on the ground right where they were hit.
A bullet transferring all it's energy and staying inside the animal is a failure in my opinion. The Hornady expands too much, and too fast. That reduces penetration. That same bullet used on an elk is a lost elk.
A Hornady might be fine for a 100 pound doe. But that is not what we are talking about.
A tree 4" in diameter fell to a shot? Are you sticking with that story?
After it penetrated a deer?
You are sticking with that story?