"Correct" sight for fowler

[roundball]

Advice: Don't allow yourself to get drawn into endless circular theory and speculation.

You asked your question, now sit back, ignore those inputs 100%, and just wait for people with historical knowledge and experience to respond with practical considerations.

 

[Dave K]

Roundball, that is NOT going to happen here! You have to take every question and but a whole bunch of "what if's" with it. Yes, peeps were used since crossbows, and there were the unmentionable guns called 'inlines' since somewhere around the 1600's or so. It was just in the lated Muzzle Blast, I would have to find the date to more accurate. But as a combination gun as described what he wanted and as I understand it to be correct with the NMLRA shoots, there would not be a rear sight that extends above the plane of the barrel.If that is important, that is what you do as that is what I did to be PC. If I wanted to circumvent the PC thing, it wouldn't be with a muzzleloader. :surrender:

 

[Twice boom]

You just Listen to round ball and he'll have you jug choking your gun and Dave will have you bending the barrel what a Bunch,eh?.. :rotf:

Twice.

 

[Robby]

fyrfyter, When I made my first fowler I went through the same process as you are now. I wanted a gun for deer and fowl, particularly turkeys. I felt I needed a rear sight, but wanted it to be correct. I cannot find the gun I used for reference in making my decision, but remember it was a big germanic looking sight, so thats the idea I went with. Having a rear sight definitely makes the deer and turkey hunting easier, but takes some getting use to for wing shooting. I don't see why you couldn't scratch a witness mark on it and remove it for that purpose, but I leave it on, and practicing on clay's, I'm not too bad with it. I hope this helps, good luck in making your decision, Its all part of the fun of this sport.
Robby

I jug choked it.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Tom Grinslade's "Flintlock Fowlers", page 213, there is a J.P.Beck fowler that I am building that has a rear sight. ca. 1800.
Matter of fact, Peter Berry, Wolfgang Haga, Fainot (2), Moll, unknown, they all have rear sights. There are British fowlers ca. 1750 that have rear sights. I don't know what time period you are trying to do, but I would think that a rear sight would not make you any less H/C P/C.
:v
P.S. They are all very low sights.

 

[Twice boom]

And there you have it.
Thanks Mike.
Twice.

 

[Dave K]

Thanks Mike for referring to a book with the guns that were actually PC as they are PC being when they were made. I have chosen to use a filed notch as my SxS are and my gun is going to be for turkey with the ability to use it on deer. There fore, I will adjust the gun to shot to where I am looking. My gun was copied after guns in that book. Look ar BS #5.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

fyrfyter43,

I don't know what kind of fowling piece you ordered but many of the Euro fowling guns had these..

A member of this board made one out of a silver spoon and it should be in the smoothbore forums somewhere. This style can allow you to shoot thru it for wingshooting. If you are getting a more American styled gun I don't know of any that have this kind of sight.

If TVM can hump your tang in the stock a little you can get a nice notch filed in. I have not seen any they have done like that so that may not be your best option.

Another option is to use a low, dovetailed rear sight with a wide v grove and I believe this to be the most common approach.

Another option and the one I would probably go for is a form of Carolina gun type winged sight. PM me and I can direct you to the ALR board where some photos of an original are posted.

I hope this helps. :thumbsup:

 

[hoochiepapa]

Nice!! Did you do the carving alike?
Those Brits knew how to do it.

 

[dhobbs]

Fyrfyter,
I shoot an English trade gun also known as(Type G)or "Carolina Gun" built by the late Dave Wagner. These guns were produced by the English goverment for the deer skin trade approx 1730-1770. One detail of these smoothbore guns is they usually have a brass rear sight. On originals these rear sights are placed really far back on the barrel(about 3 inches from the breech). These rear sights do not look like reproduction rifle sights( the one I have on my gun I copied from an original dug at Fort Toulouse by hand fileing) You could do an image search on the internet and find an image. Some one mentioned peep sights and these rear sights seem to have a wide notch so I do get that "peep sight" type of sight picture....it really allows me to see alot of the intended target, deer, ect.

Good luck,
David

 

[hanshi]

I took delivery on my TVM fowler close to a year ago. I ordered it with a rear sight as I planned to use it for deer (prb), turkey & small game (shot). Rear sights on fowlers are HC. Many did sport them. I didn't want a copy of some gun in a book; I just wanted an early American smoothbore and that's what I received. I don't have an extensive history with shotguns so a rear sight solves a lot of problems for me; not the least of which is having to change sighting technique back and forth. Nor do I plan to do any wing shooting, to speak of. I like having a low rear sight; it aims just like my rifles. As always, it's best to go with what you're familiar with and what you want.

 

[Dave K]

Yes, I did, but I took it to Mike Lea to get engraved. He did really awesome work. I didn't copy the engraving in it's entirety at all though. But I did hold true to a British style fowler.I was wanting a gun of the 1770's period, so I built it to that period. Which meant the style of sights that are on the gun as well.

 

[fyrfyter43]

Guys, thank you for the info and pictures on historical sights for a smoothbore. I appreciate it much more than the comments that tang sights have been around since the time of crossbows, so somebody might have put one on his fowler.

I am particularly interested in the mid-18th century, say 1750-1770, in northwestern NJ. My family roots in the Hunterdon/Warren county area of NJ date back to about 1750-1760.

I'm well aware that TVM's fowler is not necessarily PC/HC for that time/place. However, it is at least a fair representation of an early American fowler. Eventually I would like to have a gun built that is more HC/PC for the time and place that interest me, but at this point in my life it just is not an option. However, that doesn't mean I should just slap on whatever sight might have been used by somebody, somewhere, on a fowling piece from any time in history.

While I know that rear sights were not uncommon on fowlers, I would prefer to not have one. My shooting style is better suited to using a front sight only. I have been shooting shotguns for at least 30 years, but my experience with rifles and rear sights is rather limited. To be honest, I have never fired a CF rifle. I struggle with rifle-type sights as my shooting style is more instinctive, point and shoot. The problem I find myself faced with is that NJ’s law may require me to use a rear sight if I want to hunt with a single projectile. I am trying to decide if I should have a rear sight on the gun (a question that only I can answer) and if so, what type of sight would be most appropriate.

 

[fyrfyter43]

At this point, I think I may have TVM build it with a low rear sight that I can drive out if I want. The one thing that has kept me from doing that is that I really don't want to look at an empty dovetail when the sight is removed. But I'm sure with a little work I can make a blank to put in the dovetail that would be a close enough match to the barrel that it would not look too bad.

 

[roundball]

At this point, I think I may have TVM build it with a low rear sight that I can drive out if I want. The one thing that has kept me from doing that is that I really don't want to look at an empty dovetail when the sight is removed. But I'm sure with a little work I can make a blank to put in the dovetail that would be a close enough match to the barrel that it would not look too bad.

In fact, for practically nothing, you could have have Matt Avance make a fitted blank for the barrel while he has it right there

 

[MikeC]

The problem I find myself faced with is that NJ’s law may require me to use a rear sight if I want to hunt with a single projectile.

Yep NJ requires a rear sight and it must be at least 20 gauge for a single projectile if hunting deer.

 

[Dave K]

On a curious note. Would the very often seen filed groove or slot in the tang, constitute a sight in your state?

 

[hoochiepapa]

:thumbsup:

 

[fyrfyter43]

The problem I find myself faced with is that NJ’s law may require me to use a rear sight if I want to hunt with a single projectile.

Yep NJ requires a rear sight and it must be at least 20 gauge for a single projectile if hunting deer.

Mike, do you have any documentation of that? I know the digest mentions the requirement for an adjustable rear sight for modern shotguns shooting slugs. In the same section it says that shotgun shells containing a single spherical projectile are prohibited. The only mention of sights for a muzzleloader is that telescopic sights are allowed. And I don't believe they intend to prohibit the round ball for muzzleloaders (especially since we used patched round balls in the muzzleloaders for the hunter education class). This is all found under the digest heading "Firearms, Ammunition and Sights".

Even though I think I will have Matt use a low rear sight and make a matching blank to fill the dovetail when not using the sight, I would also like clarification on this. I am going to email one of my friends with Fish & Game to try to get a definite answer. If he's not sure, I'm sure he will find out for me.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

So, Paul, what you're saying is that I should maybe be considering, say, a 9x scope on this fowling piece? What whiz-bang sighting system do you use?

I would not be considering hunting without a rear sight if I wasn't sure I could reliably make a clean kill. Before dedicated slug barrels were as commonplace as they are today, I killed many deer with slugs out of the same full choke barrel I would be using later in the day with buckshot. Did I occasionally miss? Of course. Did I ever hit a deer that I didn't recover within a short distance? No.

If you "occasionally" miss the whole animal but have never lost a cripple then you've been lucky or just didn't search hard enough to find evidence of a hit.
Experience of shooting slugs from modern shotguns does not directly translate to shooting a fowler. Modern shotguns usually have a rib or a groove on top of the receiver which serves as a rear sight, that's quite different from a fowler which has just a wide top flat too low to be used for aiming at all. The vertical reference is what is needed. On the range it may be easy enough to learn how to cheek the gun and how much barrel to show to get balls in the bull but will you see exactly that same amount of barrel when you snap the gun up for a quick shot on game?
I'd suggest you ask TVM to cut a dovetail near the front of the octagon portion of the barrel, then you can research and decide on a sight to fill that dovetail. If you decide you really don't need a sight at all it is easy enough to file out a filler block for the dovetail or even ask Matt to provide one.

OOPS, I see you came to the same conclusion while I was slowly typing. :haha: