"Correct" sight for fowler

[Twice boom]

I agree, good suggestions . With one exception and that it will be less PC then installing a permanent rear sight. Can you imagine the old timers adding or removing the rear sight to suit their needs for the game being hunted. Then again they didn’t have a muzzle loader forum to help make their dissensions for them”¦Especially since fowlers of that period came with rear sights.
I see this as nothing more than an exercise to see how close one can come to being un PC with the forums blessings ..
But that just my thoughts.
Twice.

 

[fyrfyter43]

I see this as nothing more than an exercise to see how close one can come to being un PC with the forums blessings ..
But that just my thoughts.
Twice.

Not at all. I personally have no desire to have a rear sight on my fowler. However, it appears that it may be required if I choose to hunt deer with a single projectile in NJ.

I'm simply trying to find a way to comply with the law while still having a gun that will suit my intended purpose and shooting style, while keeping it as PC as possible. I may very well learn to shoot with a low rear sight and end up leaving it alone. Or I may find that it is worthless, take it off and put a blank in the dovetail and use the gun strictly for shooting shot.

The problem I have is that I struggle with using rifle-type sights. Out of 50+ deer that I have killed, only 2 were shot with a gun with a rear sight. I would say that at least 30 of those deer were killed with shotgun slugs from an old field grade Ithaca with no rib. Just a front bead and experience to know how much barrel to show.

 

[Twice boom]

WoW! Fifty deer. :hatsoff:

C'mon man, give you self little credit . Anyone that has shot fifty + deer by the time he is 38 can learn to take one shot with a rear leaf sight.

And like I said the rear sight will not come in to play while wing shooting if you learn to focus on the moving bird with a properly fitted gun. You won't even notice the front sight is there.
I just think you will be PC Be legal in every way Plus more importantly you will be closer to the way the old hunted which are whom you are trying to connect with.

And you are correct and I apologize for the Orange comment. The choice is not ours to make if we want to be legal.
Twice.

 

[Dave K]

Well, it depends HUGELY which PC is correct on a fowler. If you actually look at the book that is currently on my lap, you will see the style Kentucky fowlers usually, not always though, have a rear site. The others, such as New England, Club Butt, Hudson Valley and British-Style fowlers rarely have a rear sight, other than the groove or notch in the rear tang. Yes again rarely, there are very few shown with a rear sight that is actually attached to the barrel forward of the breech. The question then becomes, were they made that way or later installed. A rear sight on a fowler is like a rear sight on a shotgun. May be some out there, but rarely done.The book on my lap is "Flintlock Fowlers the first guns made in America" by Tom Grinslade. Now, I am not even attempting to say that his book is the one all, know all, but it is a reference book in print and not an opinion.

I would ask you game people to see if a rear site was required on a shotgun and go from there.Isn't that what this gun is? After all, your number of deer taken were with shotguns without rear sites, so I assume it is legal. Many times rear sites were used on smooth bore rifles (you have to love them name of a gun!), but documentation I have show rarely on a shotgun and that includes any of my SxS's as well.

 

[Twice boom]

"Yes again rarely, there are very few shown with a rear sight that is actually attached to the barrel forward of the breech. The question then becomes, were they made that way or later installed. I rear sight on a fowler is like a rear sight on a shotgun."

Dave . I think it's a bigger stretch to ones imagination to assume the rear sights were add on's, than is to turn what was practiced rarely in to none existent.

An yes it would be like a rear sight on a shotgun. But the folks of old were not dealing with the modern concept ,they made due with what they had and if ones reason for having a gun was to load the larder with big game and the occasional turkey or duck o/ goose he put sights on his gun of choice. That to me is less of a stretch than saying the rear sight might have been an add on. Either way add on or not they did exist, which makes them PC. And that is what we are talking about since the Laws of NJ has taken our personal preferences away from us. Just my thinking, yours may be varied..

Twice.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I am of the opinion that the majority of the high north fowling pieces were used as waterfowling guns and also saw service as muskets. Neither use called for rear sights.
The PA area guns I believe were used more for hunting with ball. They are also as a group, later in time. Many are excluded due to their likeness as rifles and some of the latest ones are clearly not designed with shotgunning in mind.

 

[Robby]

fyrfyter43, I misunderstood. I thought you wanted the rear sight. When I started deer hunting with a muzzleloader, it was with a smooth bore. The syllabus for NYS hunting regulations on muzzleloaders clearly stated "rifled barrel", at that time. I asked a Conservation Officer, that speaks occasionally at the hunter safety classes we give, about this. He said, "I'm not about to look down the bore of any gun to check it out, and that it was probably an oversight", but by definition, I could be cited. So, what I did was work through the local Sportsman Federation to get the wording changed. It worked. this is a route you might try. Most states have a federation made up of all the hunting and fishing clubs in the state, for the purpose of looking out for our interests. good luck!
Robby

 

[tg]

If you do not have to use a rear sight try it withput you may be pleasantl surprised at the results within smoothbore range with ball I find no rear sight easier mself for wingshooting.

The peep and scope ideas sound real typical,
FyrFyter, in the future you might want to make such post down in the history based sub forums it might seperate some of the garbage from the start good luck with your project.The TVM gun will serve quite well for your needs, a brass blank with a bit of engraving adds a nice touch IMHO

 

[Dave K]

Capt. Jas. I can agree 100% with that. It was mentioned that they probably not added later. Well, there is more than one old rifle that has passed through my hands that the rear sight was moved forward as the shooters eyes became older. PC, yes, to the time the shooter needed the sight moved. Was the gun built that way? No, the shooter changed it to help him see it better. Like wise I can see that a sight maybe added later as well to a fowler. Most of the Kentucky styles in the book are also of a later period as well. Was that because of expense that these guns were not rifled, but left smooth? Study the book and then tell me if the gun he is having built is PC or any other book you can show me reference to if you don't have that one. Heck, look at the TOW catalog, and tell me about fowler rear sights. Yes, even they will tell you they can be added if you are using one of their rifled barrels. Naturally you can add a sight to anything from crossbows to recurves and any type and period of shotgun you want, but that doesn't make it PC. I not trying to lead this but only one way, what is PC.

Twice, I am referring to the book I had on my lap. Something in print, holds weight to me. Also, many of these guns were at the CLA show in 2009 and I studied them pretty hard as I was in the middle of build BS #5. Your mention that rear sights were period correct or PC. The opinion doesn't apply to documented material, or hands on guns, unless you are looking at Kentucky style guns. When you say PC correct, it becomes a stretch unless you are referring to one geographic location like Kentucky style, which is also a later period in time. As far as the law, we all must abide by the law, they don't care about PC.

I don't have NJ game laws here to study and really isn't required of me, since I am in Ohio. But do they permit a non rifled shotgun to be used for deer, and if so, must it have a rear sight? The answer to that question is..........

 

[fyrfyter43]

I would ask you game people to see if a rear site was required on a shotgun and go from there.Isn't that what this gun is? After all, your number of deer taken were with shotguns without rear sites, so I assume it is legal. Many times rear sites were used on smooth bore rifles (you have to love them name of a gun!), but documentation I have show rarely on a shotgun and that includes any of my SxS's as well.

Actually, the law does require an adjustable rear sight for a shotgun. The deer I've shot with shotgun slugs were all before that was added to the law. I stopped hunting with firearms about 15 years ago. Until 3 years ago, I only hunted with a longbow. Now I hunt with longbow or flintlock only. No modern guns.

There is no mention of a rear sight for a muzzleloader in the regulation book. However, NJ's regulations read like a patchwork of things added as the need arose. I'm afraid if I ask, they will add a rear sight requirement into the next revision.

 

[Twice boom]

hanshi said.

I took delivery on my TVM fowler close to a year ago. I ordered it with a rear sight as I planned to use it for deer (prb), turkey & small game (shot). Rear sights on fowlers are HC. Many did sport them.

I guess Hanshi,Robby and Capt. Jas seem to be saying what I am and showed us examples..
No further comment from me is required.
Best.
Twice.

 

[fyrfyter43]

WoW! Fifty deer. :hatsoff:

C'mon man, give you self little credit . Anyone that has shot fifty + deer by the time he is 38 can learn to take one shot with a rear leaf sight.

Actually, 50 deer is not that many considering the very large herd in NJ and the generous seasons and bag limits. I start hunting in early September, and my season ends in late February. I can take an unlimited number of antlerless deer. I try to put at least 5-6 deer in the freezer every year, as we eat venison more than any other meat. I don't think we've bought so much as a pound of beef in the last 5 years.

My only problem with a rear sight is that I have very little experience with using one. Like I said, I have never fired a CF rifle, and I've only ever shot at 2 deer with muzzleloaders. At the range I do OK with a rear sight, but when it comes to game, I concentrate too much on the sight picture and my accuracy suffers. I guess I just don't adapt to change very well.

 

[tg]

"Whether the law requires a rear sight or not is Not particularly relevant, IMHO. If you are going to hunt deer, it seems to me that your PERSONAL hunting ETHICS would demand that you use the most accurate sighting system you can find to insure a quick, humane kill." CAPITOL :bull:





I don't know what to say pard, just make the best choice you can, it seem that some think the law is irrelevant and that not having a rear sight is unethical, I know many who shoot as well with a non rear sighted smoothie as a sighted one so I do not know where this garbage comes from other than a need to post on every topic that comes up, again good luck.

 

[fyrfyter43]

"Whether the law requires a rear sight or not is Not particularly relevant, IMHO. If you are going to hunt deer, it seems to me that your PERSONAL hunting ETHICS would demand that you use the most accurate sighting system you can find to insure a quick, humane kill." CAPITOL :bull:





I don't know what to say pard, just make the best choice you can, it seem that some think the law is irrelevant and that not having a rear sight is unethical, I know many who shoot as well with a non rear sighted smoothie as a sighted one so I do not know where this garbage comes from other than a need to post on every topic that comes up, again good luck.

A need to post on every topic, as well as a lack of concern/interest in the historical aspect of our sport.

I know that my TVM fowler leaves a little bit to be desired when it comes to historical correctness. However, given my financial situation, as well as the feedback from many folks here, I think it was my best choice at this time. Given TVM's reputation, I'm sure this will be a great gun. But just because some details are not HC doesn't mean that I shouldn't worry about being HC in other details that I have a little more control over.

 

[paulvallandigham]

It sounds like you need to get some coaching on shooting iron sights, IMHO. Maybe Dave(Smokin'50) can get together with you at one of the 3 clubs where he shoots in New Jersey, and give you some pointers.

You may not understand that with Any iron sights- handgun or rifle, or smoothbore--- you concentrate on the front sight- not both the rear and front sights, nor on either of them and the game or target. The rear sight should be "fuzzy", and the target should be also. Only the front sight should be clear in your vision( eye).

Yes, you align the front sight in the rear- that is how you reduce vertical and horizontal dispersion-- but you Look THRU the rear sight, Not AT IT. Then, while focusing your eye on that front sight, you align the front sight with the target, or game, and squeeze- not slap-- off the shot.

When using a smoothbore with Shot to Hunt upland game or waterfowl, where shots are at Moving targets, you POINT the front sight at the target, and slap the trigger.

Same gun, Two different ways its fired, depending on whether your are POINTING, or Aiming a target. :thumbsup: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

I have worked with "natural" shooters just like you many times. They all were very good students, and picked up the differences very quickly, and were very good shooters. Give yourself a break, and find a coach.

Oh, most of my students have NO experience with shooting iron sights- even on a .22 rifle- because scope sights were so inexpensive and " Necessary" when they got into shooting. They simply never had an opportunity to learn how to shoot iron sights. Its very easy to spend an hour or so at a shooting range, with a .22 rifle, using iron sights, to teach these skills to an experienced shooter, and then watch that student use a rifle or shotgun, or handgun and get it right the first time. Most of my students like the exercise where we turn a target backwards on the target stand, and have them "AIM" at the center of the paper. They then use the first hole fired into the blank paper to aim their following 4-9 shots. We then turn the target over, and score the target using the rings and bullseye on the other side. The first time we do this, the scores are so-so. The second time we do this, we see vast improvements.

If the student doesn't have his own .22 rifle, I have a few I make available to my students to use. :hmm: :thumbsup: when teaching shooters who will use MLERS, I always FINISH the training by having them do the same "blank target" exercise with their own MLERs, shooting just 3 shots, at 25 yds, off-hand. They are most proud ( And should be)of that last target when we pack up. :hmm:

 

[fyrfyter43]

I don't have NJ game laws here to study and really isn't required of me, since I am in Ohio. But do they permit a non rifled shotgun to be used for deer, and if so, must it have a rear sight? The answer to that question is..........

Yes, a non-rifled shotgun is legal for deer. If you use slugs (or even have them in your possession), the gun must have either an adjustable rear sight or a scope.

However, I don't think that is necessarily the case with a smoothbore ML. A smoothbore ML is treated as a different class of weapon. For example, the use of a single spherical projectile is prohibited in a shotgun, but a single projectile is the only projectile allowed in a smoothbore ML during certain seasons. Obviously they don't expect anybody to use a conical in a smoothbore ML.

When I get home this afternoon I am going to try to get an email off to a friend at Fish&Game. Hopefully he can give me a definitive answer or at least put me in touch with somebody who can.

 

[Twice boom]

So which way are you thinking to go since pretty much all the options where presented to you.
I ask , since it seems it's frowned up on to respond to anything other than what might be some ones else’s point of view. I too think it is unethical to shoot at anything with other means than what might or might not be Historical/ PC. The game that gives us what we call sport in turn deserve to die as cleanly as possible. The way I see it..
Twice.

 

[Robby]

Fyrfyter, If you have been hunting with a longbow then you know how to adapt to your equipment. With practice and dedication, I don't see any reason why you couldn't become very consistently accurate without a rear sight. Just like bowhunting, but you can reach out a little further. Like Clint says "a man's gotta know his limitations" :thumbsup:
Robby

 

[fyrfyter43]

Fyrfyter, If you have been hunting with a longbow then you know how to adapt to your equipment. With practice and dedication, I don't see any reason why you couldn't become very consistently accurate without a rear sight. Just like bowhunting, but you can reach out a little further. Like Clint says "a man's gotta know his limitations" :thumbsup:
Robby

Robby, thank you! That is exactly what I have been trying to say, and exactly the reason why I would prefer not to have a rear sight. I have become a fairly good shot using nothing but my instincts (and my left eye as my rear sight), both with a longbow and a shotgun. Come to think of it, I wonder if I could get away with telling a CO that my left eye IS my adjustable rear sight? :rotf:

I've spent a fair amount of time working with rear sights on rifles, but obviously not enough to overcome my ingrained, instinctive style of shooting when it comes to shooting at game. I do OK using rifle sights to punch paper, but when presented with a shot at game, I have to force myself to acquire a proper sight picture rather than just letting instinct guide my shot.

 

[fyrfyter43]

Well, I have gotten a bit of insight on the law in NJ, but it really isn't much help. I had asked the hunter ed coordinator about it, and when I saw him at Sunday's class he told me that he was going to talk to somebody in law enforcement about it while he was there.

The answer they came up with after about 30 minutes poring over the laws is that it still is a bit of a gray area in the law. Whether a rear sight is required depends on how the gun is described. If I call it a "military replica" or a "smoothbore rifle" I do not need a rear sight. But if I describe it as a "muzzleloading shotgun", a rear sight is required to hunt deer with a round ball. Although that opens up another can of worms, as a "single spherical projectile" is not legal for deer hunting with a shotgun.