Custom gun - A hanger or Shooter?

[Coot]

Right you are, roundball.

Because they do make custom rifles I intentionally left them out of the "Factory" makers.

I know it is a hated phrase by many, but there is a place for the term "semi-custom". Methinks TVM, and others, fall squarely into that category.

I see no reason for anyone to disparage "semi-custom" guns. I think that semi-custom might well apply to many original period guns. The gunsmith likely ordered locks & barrels in quantities and had a limited number of casting molds for trigger guards & butt plates available. If you wanted a gun & did not want to wait a year or more for him to order in a special barrel, special lock, etc, you went with what he had on hand. As long as the gun was not finished, making the LOP, drop or comb a bit longer, shorter, lower, etc to better fit a larger or smaller customer would not be difficult or expensive.
In todays world, a number of builders use computer controlled machines for much inletting - saving the buyer the cost of hand work - as long as the buyer is willing to accept the builder's standard barrel & lock. In both the historic and present cases, the semi-custom gun is saving the buyer time and/or money and then as now, most people are limited in one or both. To get what I wanted, I had a custom fowler made - but I really don't care if anyone else has the identical barrel, lock, furniture, build quality & wood - if it had been available for less time & money as a semi-custom, I would have been interested.

 

[roundball]

Right you are, roundball.
Because they do make custom rifles I intentionally left them out of the "Factory" makers.

"...there is a place for the term "semi-custom". Methinks TVM, and others, fall squarely into that category..."

How many guns have you had TVM build for you?

In your declaration, what steps or components in the build process precluded your guns from being called custom builds?

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Maybe "custom production"
In the past and around the ML group I was familiar with, the term custom had come to be accepted as a unique gun built by a talented builder who was respected by his peers as a quality builder. It usually contained many hand made parts that made it unique as opposed to using everything premade and available to all. Sometimes even the barrel and lock were of the same construction but it was accepted that those two components could be bought from a manufacturer and the gun still be considered custom. The inletting and other craftsmanship (no matter whether plain or fancy) was world class and when it was shipped out or presented to the buyer it need not be sent back because of some basic elementary construction problem. The architecture would be classic for the type of gun being done and would be easily recognized and applauded as same by those educated in such things.

In fairness the term custom really can mean as little as ordering a specific LOP and choosing a particular lock and wood grade like ordering from a menu for a semi production gun. The custom part is the custome(r) ordering the "car" he wants as opposed to buying off the lot even though both "cars" will come from the same production factory. The difference here is that the different color "upholstery" ordered will still come off a roll and be applied just like the standard version. To get something really custom, the guys in the production factory will most of the time not be able to do anything more than the particular process they are trained to do. For the true custom work to be done, something like special leather in tuck and roll will need to be outsourced to a real custom shop to get a superior job. In the gun world it is a little different. Why would someone want to have true custom work done on a production or semiproduction piece when the whole thing can be done in a true custom manner by a builder whose work is not only recognized by the ML public but by his peers as high quality.

I think the terminology that has been used prior and presently along with lack of education on differences in quality levels of guns has caused a lot of friction on the net. Generally, the guys who own or build the higher quality guns are really not snobbish against the other guns as much as they are offended at the consistent efforts of those trying to compare apples to string beans.

I personally think there is a great place for all levels of guns for those at all levels of interest. That said, just like a pair of mocs for example, there is a huge difference between a pair of brain tanned, correctly sewn ones and a set of chrome tanned modern patterned ones sewn with artificial sinew and made to fit over a pair of cowboy boots.

 

[Number19]

Custom production - good representation and description, but by no means is this something new to the industry. One of the earliest examples of "custom production" is Wolfgang Haga, who all indications point to his running, for that era, a production shop rather than a custom shop; employing numerous apprentices who produced rifles all of the same architectural form, worked out by Haga as a younger man, and with no engraving and only modest carving. A Haga rifle was the TVM of the colonial period.

Antique rifles do not all come up to the high level of craftmanship that "the guys who own or build the higher quality of guns" are so obsessed with. This might be shown by the two known examples of the Humble brothers of Kentucky, one by older brother Conrad and one by Michael. Conrad's rifle has "pleasing architecture and is long and graceful...much more refined", whereas Michael, "from a gunbuilders perspective he was literally flirting with design disaster".

 

[roundball]

Right you are, roundball.
Because they do make custom rifles I intentionally left them out of the "Factory" makers.

"...there is a place for the term "semi-custom". Methinks TVM, and others, fall squarely into that category..."

How many guns have you had TVM build for you?

In your declaration, what steps or components in the build process precluded your guns from being called custom builds?

Never mind...it's simple, see below:

Dictionary
cusӢtom-build [kuhs-tuhm-bild]
Verb (used with object), cusӢtom-built, cusӢtom-buildӢing.

To build to individual order:
"The company will custom-build a kitchen cabinet (...car, gun, knife, loading block, etc...) to your specifications"

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Can't disagree too much 19.
Just stating what is for these times.
There is never much new under the sun. :thumbsup:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

***Lock, Stock & Barrel*** Everything else is fluff.

This is quite true from a purely pragmatic point of view. If a purely functional gun is your desire, you can stop there. But, if you, like me, enjoy the good feeling that an attractive piece of functional art gives, then go for all of the fluff you want and can afford. In the end, it is all about the personal choices that we all make when building or purchasing a rifle. The choice is a personal thing and yours to make. :thumbsup:

Well said Billnpatti. Go for all you can, the embellished so called "high art" guns of the mid-to-late 18th Century through the first quarter of the 19th Century were used and in some cases heavily used, it is plain to anyone that bothers to look at them. They were not intended to be what we call safe gueens. To feel that way is completely inappropriate and short sighted. Dead plain guns are a relatively modern innovation and didn't become the norm until the machine age - machines can't create art.

 

[Leatherbelly]

How many guns have you had TVM build for you?

Maybe you might re think this question.How many "customs" have you built or had built for you by a reputable custom builder? Have you ever handled a custom built gun? It's obvious to me that you haven't because you get defensive if anyone points out the difference between a nicely homemade rifle and a semi-customised clunker.
I handled a TVM the other day.Not for me.Too much wrong with it to list! I think you might expand your horizons a bit RB. The muzzle loading world doesn't orbit around TVM. Just sayin.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

How many guns have you had TVM build for you?

Maybe you might re think this question.How many "customs" have you built or had built for you by a reputable custom builder? Have you ever handled a custom built gun? It's obvious to me that you haven't because you get defensive if anyone points out the difference between a nicely homemade rifle and a semi-customised clunker.
I handled a TVM the other day.Not for me.Too much wrong with it to list! I think you might expand your horizons a bit RB. The muzzle loading world doesn't orbit around TVM. Just sayin.

:thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[rjm383]

Wow! Seems like I've struck a nerve by starting this topic. Funny though, many of the thoughts here have been around back when I got into muzzle loading some 30 years ago.

-Is the gun histoicaly accurate to the time?
-Was the gun built the as it was back it the day?
-Is it a modern day factory mass produced -knockoff?
-So n so's gun is better because of who built it.
-Someone who collects guns as an investment.
-Hunter VS re-enactor?
-Art VS Tool?
-People who care about these issues VS thoes who dont???
etc, etc, etc.

From what I can gather after reading the posts in this topic is that we all have our own reasons as to why we own our black powder guns. It dosn't realy matter what the other guys reasons are for why he/she owns theirs. So long as the individual is content with what they have!

As with Cars...some buy to drive from point "A" to point"B".
Others want to race and spend lots of money to have the fastest car.
Some want old vintage cars in original condition made with original tools using original materials & parts.
Some want to make a new modern unique car different from all the others.
Some want the fanciest car money can buy.
And some are just happy to be able to aford a car.

What ever the case, be it cars or muzzsle loaders, people have what they have for their own reasons. Not right, not wrong ...just is!

SO if your a collector, investor, builder, re-enactor, history buff, art lover, purest, hunter, shooter or one who apreatiates anything to do with black powder arms... We all have one thing in common, a greater knowledge of our past.

Give it some thought.

 

From what I can gather after reading the posts in this topic is that we all have our own reasons as to why we own our black powder guns. It dosn't realy matter what the other guys reasons are for why he/she owns theirs. So long as the individual is content with what they have!

We could have told you that 50 posts ago. :rotf:

 

[rjm383]

True but wans't the ride getting there interesting? lol

 

[Stumpkiller]

Production: it was going to be built whether you existed or not in an assembly line fashion with the parts made in batches.

Semi-custom: you had some input as to which options you wanted, likely off a pre-printed sheet or form, and it was started after you ordered.

Custom: You had lots of input and the gunsmith made components or "customized" outsourced components to the level you requested.

Hand made: The gunsmith started firing up the forge to fashion you a barrel and lock after you discussed what you wanted and went out to the drying rack while the coals took to get your stock plank.

There are obviously lots of overlaps and grey areas in something that can cost $300 to $30,000 depending how much customization and embellishment you seek. You can't categorize it into three or four well defined practices.

Which is not to say a gunsmith gathered parts and built a dandy rifle just 'a cause and it was a truly custom work. Also, IMHO a custom rifle can be built around a production barrel or lock; though likely they are modified to make them more unique or correct for the period sought.

 

[Darkgael]

More than once when I've taken one of my rifles to the shooting range I've had people ask me, "You aren't going to shoot that are you?"

My answer is always, "Damn right I'm going to shoot it. That's what I built it for."

+1. That is what I thought the OP was going to be about but I did not get that sense after reading through it.
I have a single "custom" gun - a fowler, and a "poor boy" at that. I had it made with the single idea of using it for Upland hunting. I knew, however, that it would also be a beautiful, graceful tool that I could carry all day.

I'm not personally familiar with anyone who has purchased a traditional custom ML (at any price) based on the detailed level of "fit" you mention, but I guess it is possible if one is nearby the builder.

It is also possible if one has been "fitted" at some time for a shotgun and the builder knows how to apply those details to the gunstock. I did it that way and the gun came perfectly fit for me.
Pete

 

[BrownBear]

After reading through this I noticed something missing from the discussion...almost half the orders I get are for Left handed rifles. Ranging from plain jane to highly customized, every left handed order I've ever taken the customer told me the same thing...there just aren't many choices for south paws in the gun industry and if they have to spend more money to have a left handed gun they might as well have it built to their specifications.

Colin

Perfect! That's certainly the thinking behind my own wronghanded guns. I'd never pay a cent for a right handed custom job. If it's custom it's for me, and I'll have it the way I want it- starting with a lefthanded lock.

Speaking philosophically about wallhanger versus shooter, I don't run a museum. I have some really exceptional modern arms, "collectors" for sure. But if they're going to be in my house they're going to be shot. I don't hoard or speculate on old arms. I buy them to shoot them.

 

[roundball]

It is also possible if one has been "fitted" at some time for a shotgun and the builder knows how to apply those details to the gunstock. I did it that way and the gun came perfectly fit for me.
Pete

Exactly the same way I had mine custom built. I specified all dimensions for a stock that would be cut from a selected plank of specified grade maple, and every component / element of the build process was documented in a detailed, professional itemized listing for a final price, all agreed to by both parties ahead of time. They ended up with beautiful eye appeal, perfect fit, and excellent quality components and workmanship...which I shoot / hunt year round.
None are wall hangers or safe queens yet still look like new today...but when I tire of all this I'll sell them off except for one which I'll probably put up as a "wall hanger" over the fireplace at that time.

 

[Number19]

... points out the difference between a nicely homemade rifle and a semi-customised clunker...I handled a TVM the other day.Not for me.Too much wrong with it to list!...

Maybe this was true two or three years ago, but since I've been logged in - six to twelve months - yourself and several others have refused to "point out the differences". Searching the web, I've found the three most common complaints against the TVM rifle are 1) a dislike for the way it is marketed, 2) the fact it is a "historical generic" reproduction and not a bench copy of a recognized school or builder, and 3) the beefiness of the forestock.

 

[MJMarkey]

My customs are all shooters. Fancy but shooters. I also hang them on the wall, so I enjoy them all the time even when they aren't makin smoke.

 

[Robby]

Me too! :thumbsup:
Robby

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I know I have in the past listed a great many things inside and out on small production style guns that in my opinion make them inferior and less value for the dollar compared to a stick built by an individual or a Chambers kit.