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Damaged 1860 barrel

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Mike, ive just bought an uberti 60 army. Im going to set it up for conicals for hunting, that will be its main purpose, and shoot round ball for targets and plinking. I dropped a stainless washer in the arbor hole and with the wedge in get no endshake i can feel(havent measured it yet). The wedge is hitting the screw at this point. Before adding the washer i could bind the cylinder. I was thinking of making a shim for the wedge slot in the arbor, but the screw in the arbor looks good too. Seems like the shim would have more bearing surface for longevity. Am i thinking correct, i dont mind doing the work either way? Thanks for sharing your knowledge in your posts. Pete
 
Mike, regarding my earlier post, i tried the wedge from my 2005ish uberti navy, it fit the same. I could also make a new wedge out of O1, but wanted to use the stock wedge. If i have to make one, im not opposed to it
 
Here is another way to think about the forces contained in the arbor and why the end contact has no ability to arrest the key from tearing off the end of the arbor. The key when properly fit and installed essentially becomes part of the barrel group and is stopped/ arrested by the end of the arbor slot at firing. The barrel group that contains the arbor well/hole is trying to move down range away from the arbor end as soon as the ball hits the forcing cone. The key being part of the barrel group at this point is trying to take the end of the arbor with the rest of barrel. The pressure is all on the end of the arbor slot at this point and wither or not it makes contact with the well end makes no difference. The end of the arbor and barrel group are trying to separate. Only the slot strength is arresting this separation. It makes no difference if the joint is in contact or not as all the force is in opposite directions at the arbor slot end and the key is trying to take the end of the arbor with the rest of the barrel down range..
 
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This is how "equine fertilizer" gets spread and ignorance abounds!!
Springfield Art doesn't "get the arbor thing " so it's apparently not a problem . . . but he has Piettas , which if they are of recent make, doesn't have short arbors!!!
Then he's told there's no problem as long as the barrel and cylinder and wedge "fit"! THEY DON'T!!! The wedge isn't a BARREL ADJUSTER!!!! The ARBOR is the "limiting factor" as to how far the wedge can influence the further encroachment of the barrel!!! That's what makes the endshake (barrel/cylinder clearance) a repeatable, known number instead of a "moving target" or guessing game!! It's the only way to have the exact same revolver every time you reassemble it!!
If the wedge isn't installed with good force, it can/ will move even shot to shot especially when shooting max loads in Belt and Horse pistols.
Smokeless rounds are brutal in converted open top revolvers and they will "self-destruct" the wedge, break the arbor (in time) and mutilate the wedge slot in the barrel UNLESS, the arbor is correct!!

You don't have to correct the arbor in those that need it ( which is all but the originals and Piettas of the last dozen yrs) but if you care so much about your reproduction being so "close to the originals " youd be even closer if it actually FUNCTIONED as designed!!

You can shoot any gun that isn't perfect but it's more fun to shoot one that is . . .

Mike
It is plain and simple. If it isn't right it is wrong. My father would see things brought to the shop that the owner tried to fix. I can hear my fathers statement,"""It looks like a bears a## sewed up with grapevine"". He sure had a way with words but when the project left the shop it was right. Mike is right!
 
The problem is not open or not the problem is not understanding it was Black Powder back then not like now.
 
Here is another way to think about the forces contained in the arbor and why the end contact has no ability to arrest the key from tearing off the end of the arbor. The key when properly fit and installed essentially becomes part of the barrel group and is stopped/ arrested by the end of the arbor slot at firing. The barrel group that contains the arbor well/hole is trying to move down range away from the arbor end as soon as the ball hits the forcing cone. The key being part of the barrel group at this point is trying to take the end of the arbor with the rest of barrel. The pressure is all on the end of the arbor slot at this point and wither or not it makes contact with the well end makes no difference. The end of the arbor and barrel group are trying to separate. Only the slot strength is arresting this separation. It makes no difference if the joint is in contact or not as all the force is in opposite directions at the arbor slot end and the key is trying to take the end of the arbor with the rest of the barrel down range..

That particular way of looking at the relationship of the wedge and arbor is correct for a short arbor revolver. The problem is the absence of contact which allows the shockwave created at firing to not be transferred to the barrel assy. The wedge is already in contact with the forward end of the slot in the arbor, the rear contact points are on both sides of the barrel slot. A triangulation. Without the transmission of force, the assemblies are "out of time" and tend to beat each other (ultimately destroying the arbor /wedge). With the transmission of force, the assemblies react together as one unit. The transmission of vibration is key to any mechanical longevity.
Another analogy would be the effect of holding a drill rod (as in the old days with 2 men drilling rock). The smart guy (the one with the sledge hammer) hits the top of the drill rod and the guy holding the drill has to hold it really tight or some of the force going through it when struck would end up vibrating the guys hands and feel like electricity running through them!! Ouch!!!
So, it's really all about the transmission of forces generated upon firing the round. If the revolver can't deal with it as a single unit, the interruption of the forces contained will in time destroy the piece.
An arbor with space at the end of it (a disconnect) can't transmit energy to the barrel assy nearly as efficiently as with direct contact and under tension.

Mike
 
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Mike, ive just bought an uberti 60 army. Im going to set it up for conicals for hunting, that will be its main purpose, and shoot round ball for targets and plinking. I dropped a stainless washer in the arbor hole and with the wedge in get no endshake i can feel(havent measured it yet). The wedge is hitting the screw at this point. Before adding the washer i could bind the cylinder. I was thinking of making a shim for the wedge slot in the arbor, but the screw in the arbor looks good too. Seems like the shim would have more bearing surface for longevity. Am i thinking correct, i dont mind doing the work either way? Thanks for sharing your knowledge in your posts. Pete

Pete, your thinking in the right direction but shiming the wedge won't do anything for transfer of force (see my post above). Im thinking you may have "fitted" your wedge when you could lock up the cylinder and now it's just not quite able to do so. Try removing the wedge screw and see if the screw head isn't what's keeping the barrel from locking the cyl when you drive in the wedge. You probably still have space at the arbor end. (Another washer or thicker spacer)

Mike
 
Mike, here are two pictures of the 1862 Pocket Navy in .38 RF.
 

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Here a

Here are a couple of examples of fairly thin arbor slot ends I would not tap into. Click on picture to enlarge.

The one on the left looks like a Pietta and on the right is a pocket?
The Pietta's do have less material forward of the slot but it's not a factor as far as transmission is concerned. Pietta open tops of today have contact between the arbor end and the barrel assy. My only problem with them is that they have a little too much endshake (typically .005" - .007") for me. So it's very easy to dress a thousandth or 2 off the arbor and get my .0025" - .003" spec.
Still, as I posted before, the contact area is sufficient for transfer and still allow for the install of the adjustable wedge bearing. The diameter of the pocket guns obviously need a smaller bearing but the same applies to the pockets.

Mike
 
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Mike, typically, how thick are the washers used, is it fairly consistent from gun to gun, and is it consistent manufacturers like Colt reproductions and Pietta?
Robby
 
That particular way of looking at the relationship of the wedge and arbor is correct for a short arbor revolver. The problem is the absence of contact which allows the shockwave created at firing to not be transferred to the barrel assy. The wedge is already in contact with the forward end of the slot in the arbor, the rear contact points are on both sides of the barrel slot. A triangulation. Without the transmission of force, the assemblies are "out of time" and tend to beat each other (ultimately destroying the arbor /wedge). With the transmission of force, the assemblies react together as one unit. The transmission of vibration is key to any mechanical longevity.
Another analogy would be the effect of holding a drill rod (as in the old days with 2 men drilling rock). The smart guy (the one with the sledge hammer) hits the top of the drill rod and the guy holding the drill has to hold it really tight or some of the force going through it when struck would end up vibrating the guys hands and feel like electricity running through them!! Ouch!!!
So, it's really all about the transmission of forces generated upon firing the round. If the revolver can't deal with it as a single unit, the interruption of the forces contained will in time destroy the piece.
An arbor with space at the end of it (a disconnect) can't transmit energy to the barrel assy nearly as efficiently as with direct contact and under tension.

Mike
Would not the shock wave and harmonics you refer to be initiated from the barrel group when the ball hits the forcing cone and is trying to separate from the arbor? What then would it matter wither or not it transfers this energy back through the arbor end? What matters at firing when the barrel group is trying to tear off the end of the arbor and move down range is that all the pressure points that are stopping this are equally loaded on both sides of the barrel slots and under lug. These three points are what align and determine the bore axis movement and where the projectile will print on target. At firing when all the seat points are loaded and the barrel group is in tension is when harmonics are at peak. These are concentrated in the barrel not the frame which the arbor is anchored to and a part of.
We've established ( in my mind any way) that the arbor end contact into the hole end plays no part in arresting arbor tip separation and that harmonics in a short barrel gun with several joints in it's construction is probably not effecting accuracy in a substantial way, now were trying to understand what if any part vibration or shock wave harmonics have in gun longevity, with or without arbor end contact.
My thinking is if the key fits properly in all slot seats and is adequately hard, then barrel lever loading of the ball is removing any potential joint movement slack that could batter the gun loose. Stand loading the cylinder would negate this if wedge fit is sloppy. but then a sloppy fit or soft wedge will cause battering even if arbor end fit were snug.
These are the reasons I maintain that arbor end fit into the arbor well of the barrel is relatively unimportant to both accuracy or longevity and that Pietta probabaly understood this as well . Before CNC driven equipment was installed arbor end fit would have been hand fitting which would have increased the customer cost. Switching to CNC driven equipment is the probable reason for the tightening of this and all other tolerances in newer models to compete better with Uberti , which is a good thing.
Again, one mans thoughts an opinion. A very interesting discussion and exchange of ideas !
 
Would not the shock wave and harmonics you refer to be initiated from the barrel group when the ball hits the forcing cone and is trying to separate from the arbor? What then would it matter wither or not it transfers this energy back through the arbor end? What matters at firing when the barrel group is trying to tear off the end of the arbor and move down range is that all the pressure points that are stopping this are equally loaded on both sides of the barrel slots and under lug. These three points are what align and determine the bore axis movement and where the projectile will print on target. At firing when all the seat points are loaded and the barrel group is in tension is when harmonics are at peak. These are concentrated in the barrel not the frame which the arbor is anchored to and a part of.
We've established ( in my mind any way) that the arbor end contact into the hole end plays no part in arresting arbor tip separation and that harmonics in a short barrel gun with several joints in it's construction is probably not effecting accuracy in a substantial way, now were trying to understand what if any part vibration or shock wave harmonics have in gun longevity, with or without arbor end contact.
My thinking is if the key fits properly in all slot seats and is adequately hard, then barrel lever loading of the ball is removing any potential joint movement slack that could batter the gun loose. Stand loading the cylinder would negate this if wedge fit is sloppy. but then a sloppy fit or soft wedge will cause battering even if arbor end fit were snug.
These are the reasons I maintain that arbor end fit into the arbor well of the barrel is relatively unimportant to both accuracy or longevity and that Pietta probabaly understood this as well . Before CNC driven equipment was installed arbor end fit would have been hand fitting which would have increased the customer cost. Switching to CNC driven equipment is the probable reason for the tightening of this and all other tolerances in newer models to compete better with Uberti , which is a good thing.
Again, one mans thoughts an opinion. A very interesting discussion and exchange of ideas !
Below is my synopsis of what you have described just to make sure I am interpreting everything the same way you are.

Basically, as the ball enters the barrel and transfers force forward, the barrel begins to pull forward on the arbor by way of the wedge. When that happens, the wedge pushes the forward end of the arbor, which creates the force which could break the arbor as shown in your pictures.

The question as to whether an arbor being seated against the base of the arbor hole can keep it from breaking will hinge on the relative properties of the materials involved.

If the material in the arbor achieves a breaking point after being stretched a certain amount over a certain number of rounds fired, then having the arbor seated against the base of the arbor hole could keep that arbor from breaking if the material the barrel lug is made of keeps the arbor from stretching to that point at which microscopic fissures begin to form. Under those circumstances, the arbor will be unable to stretch enough for those fissures to occur.

If, however, the barrel lug flexes enough to allow the arbor to stretch to that breaking point, then having the arbor seated against the base of the arbor hole may not help prolong the life of the arbor because the lug will move forward far enough that it won't support the end of the arbor when the weapon is fired.

Ultimately, a strong arbor is the most important requirement if the strength of the barrel lug varies significantly from one weapon to another, moreso than having the arbor seat against the base of the arbor hole.

I will, however, stand by the idea that having the arbor seat against the base of the arbor hole keeps the barrel from snapping back against the wedge excessively after the bullet exits the muzzle. This is where the benefit of a fully seated arbor seems to best come about.

Only a metallurgical analysis can answer the aforementioned question, and that analysis would only apply to a given revolver or specific run of revolvers where manufacturing standards are very specific.
 
Mike, thanks for your reply. I should have told you that I did remove the screw and try it. With a washer the wedge doesn't bottom out and tightens the assembly and everything is good. But the wedge goes too deep to use the retention screw. I'm looking to not seat the wedge so deep. With the screw in, after shooting, I can pop the wedge out by hand. There, I think that's clearer, I was tired last night and don't think I got my thoughts across clearly.
As far as the pros/cons of arbor length, I get it. With the short arbor we are looking at the shock waves reverberating back and forth like a tuning fork, or a broken baseball bat. Eventually, that will beat the gun up. Me, I prefer to have an absolute stop when I assemble my gun. I never liked using the wedge as an adjustment. That's my preference, others have theirs, that's fine with me. Either works, but I think one will work longer.
 
Mike, thanks for your reply. I should have told you that I did remove the screw and try it. With a washer the wedge doesn't bottom out and tightens the assembly and everything is good. But the wedge goes too deep to use the retention screw. I'm looking to not seat the wedge so deep. With the screw in, after shooting, I can pop the wedge out by hand. There, I think that's clearer, I was tired last night and don't think I got my thoughts across clearly.
As far as the pros/cons of arbor length, I get it. With the short arbor we are looking at the shock waves reverberating back and forth like a tuning fork, or a broken baseball bat. Eventually, that will beat the gun up. Me, I prefer to have an absolute stop when I assemble my gun. I never liked using the wedge as an adjustment. That's my preference, others have theirs, that's fine with me. Either works, but I think one will work longer.

Well, if you drill the end of the arbor to the wedge slot, thread it, install a ground flat set screw, your new adjustable bearing will allow you to start over with your existing wedge.

Mike
 
Would not the shock wave and harmonics you refer to be initiated from the barrel group when the ball hits the forcing cone and is trying to separate from the arbor? What then would it matter wither or not it transfers this energy back through the arbor end? What matters at firing when the barrel group is trying to tear off the end of the arbor and move down range is that all the pressure points that are stopping this are equally loaded on both sides of the barrel slots and under lug. These three points are what align and determine the bore axis movement and where the projectile will print on target. At firing when all the seat points are loaded and the barrel group is in tension is when harmonics are at peak. These are concentrated in the barrel not the frame which the arbor is anchored to and a part of.
We've established ( in my mind any way) that the arbor end contact into the hole end plays no part in arresting arbor tip separation and that harmonics in a short barrel gun with several joints in it's construction is probably not effecting accuracy in a substantial way, now were trying to understand what if any part vibration or shock wave harmonics have in gun longevity, with or without arbor end contact.
My thinking is if the key fits properly in all slot seats and is adequately hard, then barrel lever loading of the ball is removing any potential joint movement slack that could batter the gun loose. Stand loading the cylinder would negate this if wedge fit is sloppy. but then a sloppy fit or soft wedge will cause battering even if arbor end fit were snug.
These are the reasons I maintain that arbor end fit into the arbor well of the barrel is relatively unimportant to both accuracy or longevity and that Pietta probabaly understood this as well . Before CNC driven equipment was installed arbor end fit would have been hand fitting which would have increased the customer cost. Switching to CNC driven equipment is the probable reason for the tightening of this and all other tolerances in newer models to compete better with Uberti , which is a good thing.
Again, one mans thoughts an opinion. A very interesting discussion and exchange of ideas !

Well, before the revolver is even fired, the wedge would be imparting great tension onto the end of the arbor. Remember, the rear edge of the wedge imparts a constant force against the rear surfaces on each side of the barrel slot. This in effect is constantly pulling the bottom of the arbor hole hard against the end of the arbor. Therefore, the wedge driven in in fact keeps the arbor together. The arbor torqued into the frame is what keeps the total package together.

Mike
 
It's the total slack in the system that uses a wedge to keep the endshake "just so" (because the arbor isn't), and a wedge that can be installed "finger tight" (remember my test - pushed in vs driven in) that allows the components to move and stretch to the point of failure.
I don't know of any correct or corrected revolvers that have failed. My personal, smokless only, open top revolvers maintain tolerances and their diet isn't light . . . it's upper end of the 1st tier. I'd not shoot my loads in an "out of the box" revolver that wasn't "corrected . . . even the Pietta's endshake would need to be adjusted to .002" max.

That's been my personal experience . . .

Mike
 
Smokey Plainsman, i had bought a `21 made pietta 1860 army in December. Beautiful gun, all it needed was a taller front sight. If i wanted a gun strictly for round ball, that would've been the one. It was a fantastic gun. But it didnt have enough room to load conicals in the loading port, and there was no way i was grinding on such a fine gun. I stripped it to deburr and it was clean as a whistle inside. Greased it with moly wheel bearing grease and it was smooth as a baby's behind. Perfect.
 

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