Davy Crockett's first gun

[John Wasmuth]

Davy's always got some great info on things of this nature1 :hatsoff:

 

[davy]

Davy's always got some great info on things of this nature1 :hatsoff:

I cannot believe you accuse me of sich! :nono:

I am a rank armiture about Davy C. myself! :shocked2: I do enjoy learning about him!

Have any of you read the new bio out about him called "David Crockett - Hero for the Common Man" .. by Bill Groneman? I just got done reading it .. nice work! Bill G. is an avid Alamo and Crockett buff!

If any of you are around San Antonio next weekend of March 6th 2006 .. the 20th year Alamo Society Symposium is on the agenda and you can meet many like minded peoples as authors, hysterians, and plain folks like ourselves there .. not to mention the re-enactment of the Alamo battle etc that go on that weekend! Good stuff!

Davy

 

[John Wasmuth]

It was a compliment, I asure you sir!
Nope, aint read it yet, but looks like I think i might. Hopin to be there for March 6th! Should be great fun.

 

[davy]

It was a compliment, I asure you sir!
Nope, aint read it yet, but looks like I think i might. Hopin to be there for March 6th! Should be great fun.[/quote]

Hey Micanopy

John Hinnant ... member of this board lives down Bejar way .. ya mite look him up iffin your in his neck of the woods!

Onry as he iz :cursing: ... he is an absolute wealth of BP knowledge! Onlyiest about 50 sum odd yars of it! :hmm: When it comes ta Holy Black .. he is a mitey willin boyo! :grin: Also a Davy C. & Alamo fan as well! :hatsoff:

Davy

 

[John Wasmuth]

Kinda like, "I gota warn ya, Sam's a might prickely, so no promises."

I needa go into Bejar and get some powder, no one sells the real stuff out here, say it costs to much, and it is useless in inlines? Who shoots inlines? I got this ram here with my flinter this weekend, way to much fun!

 

[Okwaho]

Well we know Davy C. had at least these rifles during his life ... and most likely more ...

1) his first original .48-caliber flintlock "York Style" rifle listed above. (now located in Tennessee)

2) as well as "Old Betsy" he used to kill 125 bears between 1825 and 1834.(now located in the Alamo Chapel)

3) "Pretty Betsy" givin and inscribed to him as a gift to Crockett in 1834 by the Whigs of Philadelphia. (location Tenn)

4) The "Andy Thomas" rifle that he traded coming to Texas. (now located in the Alamo Long Barracks)

5) Two "unknown" rifles which he sold to I believe Neil, while in Texas, for use by forces in the Tex Rev .. which by the way, were NOT paid for by the Tex Govt until years after efforts of his by his daughter to recomp the payment due. (location not known)

6) "Whatever" rifle he used at the Alamo .. maybe several for that matter. (location not known)

I am sure there were others! The man was a verifiable rifle magnet! :bow:

Davy

The first rifle{now on loan to the East Tennessee Historical Society in Knoxville, Tennessee}is reputed to have belonged to Crockett and considered to have been his first rifle. It is an unsigned probably York County,Pa. full stock rifle{Ca.late 18th to early 19th century} which is supposed to have been located in Jefferson County,Tennessee since Ca.1806.When this rifle first appeared some time back it was a veritable batch of old parts and was very well restored by Herschel House.As I recall the provenance I saw seemed to me to be a little shaky but the excitement of having Crockett's rifle has apparently overcome the provenance issue. I would still like to see the provenance for myself.

As to the "Old Betsy" and "Andy Thomas" rifles being located at the Alamo,I can find no solid documentation that there are any rifles extant which can be safely attributed to an Alamo defender.There is a rifle at the Alamo which was apparently fabricated a number of years back by a local gunsmith from parts of guns reputed to have been at the Alamo using a Jacob Dickert[url] barrel.In[/url] 1924 a rifle supposed to have been used at the Alamo by one Moses Rose was presented to the Alamo but subsequent research has cast doubt on the existence of a Moses Rose. The "Andy Thomas" story is totally new to me and I would like to see solid proof.

There was earlier a mention of a rifle presented to Crockett by his Lawrence County constituents about 1822 made by James Graham,gunsmith.In 1822 Crockett had served one term in the Tennessee Legislature and had suffered a major loss of his mill after it was washed away when Shoal creek flooded in September,1822.Much of his personal property was sold at auction or by private sale shortly thereafter and he moved to Gibson County,Tennessee in late 1822 or early 1823.I grew up in Lawrence County and had never heard any account of his being given a rifle there until I saw an account making such a claim. That article is likely the source of your statement in an earlier post.I do recall seeing a fowler many years ago which descended in a local family whose ancestor hought it at the sale. I also know of a bed in another local family which was sold at the auction.I suspect you are confusing such a gift with the "Pretty Betsy" rifle given him in 1834 by the Young Whigs of Philadelphia. They also gave him a tomahawk which is now in the Smithsonian.I don't know the whereabouts of that rifle and the Tennessee State Museum informed me that they have no Crockett rifle.Crockett is supposed to have left that gun behind with his son when he left Gibson County for Texas but I have seen nothing to indicate the whereabouts of the gun.I would very much like to see solid documentation on both the so called
"Andy Thomas" gun and the present location of Crockett's presentation gun.

You are correct in that the Provisional Government of Texas agreed in January 1836 before the battle to pay Crockett $60.00 for two rifle guns and that on February 13, 1836 with Santa Anna marching Crockett asked the Government to pay to the bearer H.A. Alsbury what he was owed.

There is and has been confusion as to whether any guns belonging to Crockett have survived and with the possible exception of the rifle in the East Tennessee Historical collection, I have been unable to determine the location of any of them.The rifle presented to him by the young Whigs of Philadelphia may still be in existence and I would very much like to know where.
Tom Patton

 

[davy]

Well we know Davy C. had at least these rifles during his life ... and most likely more ...

1) his first original .48-caliber flintlock "York Style" rifle listed above. (now located in Tennessee)

2) as well as "Old Betsy" he used to kill 125 bears between 1825 and 1834.(now located in the Alamo Chapel)

3) "Pretty Betsy" givin and inscribed to him as a gift to Crockett in 1834 by the Whigs of Philadelphia. (location Tenn)

4) The "Andy Thomas" rifle that he traded coming to Texas. (now located in the Alamo Long Barracks)

5) Two "unknown" rifles which he sold to I believe Neil, while in Texas, for use by forces in the Tex Rev .. which by the way, were NOT paid for by the Tex Govt until years after efforts of his by his daughter to recomp the payment due. (location not known)

6) "Whatever" rifle he used at the Alamo .. maybe several for that matter. (location not known)

I am sure there were others! The man was a verifiable rifle magnet! :bow:

Davy

The first rifle{now on loan to the East Tennessee Historical Society in Knoxville, Tennessee}is reputed to have belonged to Crockett and considered to have been his first rifle. It is an unsigned probably York County,Pa. full stock rifle{Ca.late 18th to early 19th century} which is supposed to have been located in Jefferson County,Tennessee since Ca.1806.When this rifle first appeared some time back it was a veritable batch of old parts and was very well restored by Herschel House.As I recall the provenance I saw seemed to me to be a little shaky but the excitement of having Crockett's rifle has apparently overcome the provenance issue. I would still like to see the provenance for myself.

As to the "Old Betsy" and "Andy Thomas" rifles being located at the Alamo,I can find no solid documentation that there are any rifles extant which can be safely attributed to an Alamo defender.There is a rifle at the Alamo which was apparently fabricated a number of years back by a local gunsmith from parts of guns reputed to have been at the Alamo using a Jacob Dickert[url] barrel.In[/url] 1924 a rifle supposed to have been used at the Alamo by one Moses Rose was presented to the Alamo but subsequent research has cast doubt on the existence of a Moses Rose. The "Andy Thomas" story is totally new to me and I would like to see solid proof.

There was earlier a mention of a rifle presented to Crockett by his Lawrence County constituents about 1822 made by James Graham,gunsmith.In 1822 Crockett had served one term in the Tennessee Legislature and had suffered a major loss of his mill after it was washed away when Shoal creek flooded in September,1822.Much of his personal property was sold at auction or by private sale shortly thereafter and he moved to Gibson County,Tennessee in late 1822 or early 1823.I grew up in Lawrence County and had never heard any account of his being given a rifle there until I saw an account making such a claim. That article is likely the source of your statement in an earlier post.I do recall seeing a fowler many years ago which descended in a local family whose ancestor hought it at the sale. I also know of a bed in another local family which was sold at the auction.I suspect you are confusing such a gift with the "Pretty Betsy" rifle given him in 1834 by the Young Whigs of Philadelphia. They also gave him a tomahawk which is now in the Smithsonian.I don't know the whereabouts of that rifle and the Tennessee State Museum informed me that they have no Crockett rifle.Crockett is supposed to have left that gun behind with his son when he left Gibson County for Texas but I have seen nothing to indicate the whereabouts of the gun.I would very much like to see solid documentation on both the so called
"Andy Thomas" gun and the present location of Crockett's presentation gun.

You are correct in that the Provisional Government of Texas agreed in January 1836 before the battle to pay Crockett $60.00 for two rifle guns and that on February 13, 1836 with Santa Anna marching Crockett asked the Government to pay to the bearer H.A. Alsbury what he was owed.

There is and has been confusion as to whether any guns belonging to Crockett have survived and with the possible exception of the rifle in the East Tennessee Historical collection, I have been unable to determine the location of any of them.The rifle presented to him by the young Whigs of Philadelphia may still be in existence and I would very much like to know where.
Tom Patton

Interesting stuff ... certainly bears looking into! :hmm:

Thanx for the information!

Davy

 

[John Wasmuth]

Fasinatin information! thanks for postin that.

 

[davy]

Fasinatin information! thanks for postin that.

BTW there is some small amt of info on Andy Thomas and his rifle trade page 72-73 in the Manual Cobia's "Journey Into the Land of Trial" .. its a recent book about Crockett's travels into Texas on his way to the Alamo.

Davy

 

[John Wasmuth]

See, I told ya! I'd like to read that book. I remember in Three roads to the Alamo, David Crockett sold two rifles, and a horse to the Texians. I recall reading some where, perhaps old age wont let me remember, that one was a .52 caliber, and the other of medium bore? Whatever that means, I would presume that it was somewhere atwixed a .36 to .42 caliber. He also traded his watch for another watch and some coin. Perhaps cutting the last tie to his past. fasinating man this David Crockett.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings Okwako,

Colonel Crockett's first rifle has a 1792 date engraved on the patch box cover. The late John Bivins and George Shumway had no trouble with the provenance on this rifle. it did not seem shakey to them.

The 1822 rifle made by John Grahm is currently on display at the ALAMO. It was never used in the 1836 Alamo Battle, having been left behind in Tennesse. Due to abuse, it was coverted to a half-stock caplock style and remains that way today. The provenance for this rifle was provided one of David Crockett's son.

The Andy Thomas rifle is well documented by the Andy Thomas family and descendants. Traded to a young Andy Thomas, while passing through East Texas, this rifle also has good provenance. This is a heavy rifle, weighing 14 - 15 pounds. The weight factor leads to speculation that this might be the heavy rifle that Colonel Crockett had when he had a relapse of malaria while returning from a rather long trip. He was too weak to walk and would probably have died if two friedly Indians had not found him, carried him and his "heavy gun" home.

The History and provenance of all of these rifles can be found in the files of the Daughters of the Republic of Texas Research Library located on the grounds of the ALAMO.

Congressman Crockett's "Pretty New Betsy" was also left behind when he left for Texas. The butt- stock of this rifle was photographed and appeared in THE MUZZLE LOADING RIFLE, Then And Now, by Walter Cline, published in 1942. At that time, the rifle was on display in the State Capitol Musuem at Little Rock, Arkansas and on loan from its then owner, Miss Beth Crockett, great,great grand-daughter of David Crockett.

A 1950's article in the Houston (Texas) Chronicle newspaper stated the rifle was then the property of another great, great, grand-daughter, Mrs. A.H. Holderness. The same article has a photo of Mrs. Holderness holding the rifle by the muzzle with the butt on the floor. That the two rifles are one and the same can be proven by the unusual pistol grip seen in both photographs. A copy of this photograph was framed and hung on the ALAMO Chapel wall to the immediate right of the Information Desk. It is not there now, and nobody seems to know where it is.

Hope this information will prove useful.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[davy]

Greetings Okwako,

Colonel Crockett's first rifle has a 1792 date engraved on the patch box cover. The late John Bivins and George Shumway had no trouble with the provenance on this rifle. it did not seem shakey to them.

The 1822 rifle made by John Grahm is currently on display at the ALAMO. It was never used in the 1836 Alamo Battle, having been left behind in Tennesse. Due to abuse, it was coverted to a half-stock caplock style and remains that way today. The provenance for this rifle was provided one of David Crockett's son.

The Andy Thomas rifle is well documented by the Andy Thomas family and descendants. Traded to a young Andy Thomas, while passing through East Texas, this rifle also has good provenance. This is a heavy rifle, weighing 14 - 15 pounds. The weight factor leads to speculation that this might be the heavy rifle that Colonel Crockett had when he had a relapse of malaria while returning from a rather long trip. He was too weak to walk and would probably have died if two friedly Indians had not found him, carried him and his "heavy gun" home.

The History and provenance of all of these rifles can be found in the files of the Daughters of the Republic of Texas Research Library located on the grounds of the ALAMO.

Congressman Crockett's "Pretty New Betsy" was also left behind when he left for Texas. The butt- stock of this rifle was photographed and appeared in THE MUZZLE LOADING RIFLE, Then And Now, by Walter Cline, published in 1942. At that time, the rifle was on display in the State Capitol Musuem at Little Rock, Arkansas and on loan from its then owner, Miss Beth Crockett, great,great grand-daughter of David Crockett.

A 1950's article in the Houston (Texas) Chronicle newspaper stated the rifle was then the property of another great, great, grand-daughter, Mrs. A.H. Holderness. The same article has a photo of Mrs. Holderness holding the rifle by the muzzle with the butt on the floor. That the two rifles are one and the same can be proven by the unusual pistol grip seen in both photographs. A copy of this photograph was framed and hung on the ALAMO Chapel wall to the immediate right of the Information Desk. It is not there now, and nobody seems to know where it is.

Hope this information will prove useful.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

Good stuff John ... Sir! As an aside .. I was recently talking to a hysterian known to both of us, and he told me that according to his research in regard to the two rifles sold to the Texian Army .. for which Crockett actually recieved in leiu of cash, a reciept for ... and at a later date sold said note to Col Neil at a discount most likely. I had always thought that Neil had bought them outright for the Republic! Not so! ... I was told by this person who should know! As I said ... interesting stuff! :hmm:

Davy

 

[Okwaho]

Davy,John,I have no problem with the dating or origin of the Jefferson County gun but am merely recounting my reaction to the provenance I saw when that gun came out as a real basket case.The provenance looked shaky to me and I am not alone here in this part of the country.I do not mean to impugn either the late John Bivens or George Shumway but rather prefer to reach my own conclusions.

As to the "Pretty Betsey" rifle,I knew about the photos and the write ups on it but wondered where it is today since it isn't in the State of Tennessee.I'll keep looking and maybe I'll turn it up.

As to the rifle supposedly given to Crockett in 1822 in Lawrence County,Tennessee and referred to as "Old Betsey", I remain dubious as to it's reposing in the Alamo. I believe it was stated that it was in the Alamo Chapel Museum and I have some info on it which I am pursuing.When I find out more I will post what I find.

As to the Thomas rifle I will also follow up on it.One writer mentioned a new book and I will see what Mr. Cobia has to say.As to the good ladies of the Alamo I can only say that I generally choose to do my own research and draw my own conclusions.It has been my experience with historical societies and organizations of that ilk, that their ardor and enthusiasm often cloud their objectivity. Again I will continue to post my findings and opinions.
Tom Patton

 

[davy]

Davy,John,I have no problem with the dating or origin of the Jefferson County gun but am merely recounting my reaction to the provenance I saw when that gun came out as a real basket case.The provenance looked shaky to me and I am not alone here in this part of the country.I do not mean to impugn either the late John Bivens or George Shumway but rather prefer to reach my own conclusions.

As to the "Pretty Betsey" rifle,I knew about the photos and the write ups on it but wondered where it is today since it isn't in the State of Tennessee.I'll keep looking and maybe I'll turn it up.

As to the rifle supposedly given to Crockett in 1822 in Lawrence County,Tennessee and referred to as "Old Betsey", I remain dubious as to it's reposing in the Alamo. I believe it was stated that it was in the Alamo Chapel Museum and I have some info on it which I am pursuing.When I find out more I will post what I find.

As to the Thomas rifle I will also follow up on it.One writer mentioned a new book and I will see what Mr. Cobia has to say.As to the good ladies of the Alamo I can only say that I generally choose to do my own research and draw my own conclusions.It has been my experience with historical societies and organizations of that ilk, that their ardor and enthusiasm often cloud their objectivity. Again I will continue to post my findings and opinions.
Tom Patton

Fair enuff.. I would expect no other reaction .. you should check for yourself! :thumbsup:

You will find really very little in the Cobia book regarding the Thomas rifle .. just a short paragraph or three on pages 72-73 ... interestingly enuff .. he, makes an assertion that Andy Thomas to have come with Crockett to Texas.

I do know there are two reportedly Crockett rifles at the Alamo, one in the Long Barracks museum (the Thomas claimed rifle) and the one in the Sacristy in the Alamo Church. If they allowed photos there I would happily photo them .. but no go ... :nono: No known Crockett Alamo Battle rifle exists as far as I know of.

Davy

 

[John Wasmuth]

Just got back from Bejar and The Alamo. I sketched the small bore rifle in the shrine for the bright work, including the patch box. Interestingly enough, the cresents, stars, and an odd looking "Arrow" on the left side of the butt stock near one would place his cheek, which appear to be silver. The patchbox appears to be brass, along with the trigger guard and side plate, with an inscription and a date of August 1822. The nose cap appears to be pewter. The rifle is a percussion cap lock, which I'm gathering by reading these pages wouldn't be common. The full stock in the long barracks is also a percussion cap lock, and not nearly as ornimated as the small bore in the shrine, and appears to be somewhere near a .50 caliber, it could be slightly smaller or larger caliber. With the way the rifle is positioned, it's hard to tell exactly. If walls could talk what a tale they could tell. It's all purely fasinating for me.

 

[davy]

Just got back from Bejar and The Alamo. I sketched the small bore rifle in the shrine for the bright work, including the patch box. Interestingly enough, the cresents, stars, and an odd looking "Arrow" on the left side of the butt stock near one would place his cheek, which appear to be silver. The patchbox appears to be brass, along with the trigger guard and side plate, with an inscription and a date of August 1822. The nose cap appears to be pewter. The rifle is a percussion cap lock, which I'm gathering by reading these pages wouldn't be common. The full stock in the long barracks is also a percussion cap lock, and not nearly as ornimated as the small bore in the shrine, and appears to be somewhere near a .50 caliber, it could be slightly smaller or larger caliber. With the way the rifle is positioned, it's hard to tell exactly. If walls could talk what a tale they could tell. It's all purely fasinating for me.[/quote]

Sounds fun Micanopy! :grin:

If ... I remember it rite, the Thomas rifle in the LB is about 48 cal... and the othern in the Church is the one that was originally a longer flinter .. that has thru the years been chopped and percussed as it were! :cursing:

I never seem to get tired of walking thru the Alamo Church, it is a special place .. filled with memories of bravery and honor ...

Davy

 

[John Wasmuth]

Me either, I can spend hours there, there is a lot to see, and a lot to learn and wonder about. Hope so that this coming March 6th we can meet up down there. Ifin ya went down last year I'm sure I seen ya. They moved the flintlock display in the gift shop again, and added some different bowie's. Great way to spend a day.

 

[davy]

Me either, I can spend hours there, there is a lot to see, and a lot to learn and wonder about. Hope so that this coming March 6th we can meet up down there. Ifin ya went down last year I'm sure I seen ya. They moved the flintlock display in the gift shop again, and added some different bowie's. Great way to spend a day.

Yessir it is ... and yess unless something turrible happens I will be there on Dawn Ceremony weekend! Alot going on down there then! :v

Davy

 

[John Wasmuth]

I forgot to mention, I noticed for the first time the detail of the side lock on the small bore in the shrine. It is what appears to be either a colonial soldier or George Washington himself on the patch box. fasninating stuff! I've been searching High and low for the orniments to livin up my Crockett rifle, but have found nothing the same, so it appears that I will have to cut them myself.

 

[davy]

I forgot to mention, I noticed for the first time the detail of the side lock on the small bore in the shrine. It is what appears to be either a colonial soldier or George Washington himself on the patch box. fasninating stuff! I've been searching High and low for the orniments to livin up my Crockett rifle, but have found nothing the same, so it appears that I will have to cut them myself.

Ahh ... iffin only we could get our hot little monkey paws on thet Crockett riflegun fer a few minutos to take some photos! :cursing: Life would THEN be sweet!

I do not know ANYONE who has photos of it! Does anyone else? If so then please post them pronto! :grin:

Davy :thumbsup: