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Decision on flintlock kit.

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Applejack

32 Cal.
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I am new to this forum but not new to muzzleloading and have some questions concerning a flintlock.

The winter of 1976-77 I built a Thompson Center .50 cal. percussion Hawken kit. An old timer gave me half a quart jar of browning fluid he had made from chemicals that I used on the iron parts. I finished the stock with tung oil. I feel the rifle turned out very well.

I have hunted deer from the same cabin on forty acres in the middle of the U.P. of Michigan since 1970. There, I use my .45-70 Government Marlin Model 1895 manufactured in 1972. In Ohio, I use the Hawken during deer season.

In September of 1972 I attended the Friendship matches as a visitor for a day. I had been hooked on muzzleloaders for many years before that but no one in my area was shooting one back then. I was watching the start of a flintlock match and saw a man in his early fifties, clean shaven, wearing a farmer straw hat and blue workshirt and denim bib overalls with well worn bullet pouch and large and small powder horns leaning on the muzzle of a Southern Mountain style flintlock. The rifle was plain with browned furniture and barrel. The only fancy spot on it was a silver cresent moon inlaid on the cheek piece. Other shooters were carrying tackle boxes of gear and loading stands to the firing line preparing for the match while he just stood there. When the order to begin firing was given, he stepped to the line and began loading and shooting with a PRB cutting patches with a patch knife on his shoulder strap and using the main and priming horns. During loading he kept his concentration on the target only looking down when measuring out the powder charges and priming. His loading was like a precision machine. Almost as soon as the rifle butt touched his shoulder, he fired. He shot his string before most of the other shooters had fired two shots as they carefully tapped rods with hammers in their loading stands. I did not stay to the end of the match and do not know how well he scored. But, it was the most memorable shooting demonstration I had ever witnessed. It was absolutly beautiful! My deer hunting partner was with me that day and we have talked about that shooter many times. We were both really impressed with the remarkable riflemanship we witnessed that day.

Two years ago I decided to build a Southern Mountain rifle and researched various kits and then backed out because I did not feel I had the spare time as a busy dairy farmer to put into building the rifle of my dreams. Now, I am reconsidering doing it this winter.

I am considering a Southern Mountain kit from Pecatonica River in .50 cal. with next best grade of maple stock stained to a dark brown color with brown furniture and no patchbox or grease hole. I like the Durs Egg lock and Davis trigger offered in the kit. I am confident I can do the finishing work but will have the inletting and all other services done by Pacatonica. I want a simple rifle like I admired of the shooter at Friendship. The rifle will replace my centerfire I use in Michigan. Hunting with a primitive weapon for deer and training to use it with precision is what interests me the most now at age 59. I would love to target shoot but my ageing eyes are not what they used to be. I have a 6 inch by 6 inch steel plate suspended from a tree in a pasture that I enjoy shooting at with my handloaded .45-70 rounds and my .50 cal. TC Hawken. I usually shoot at between 75 and 100 yards with open sights and can make the steel ring 9 out of 10 times which I feel is good enough for deer hunting.

I would value any comments or suggestions you experts have concerning my intentions.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and comments.

APPLEJACK
 
I have some questions about what you are doing. How long do you plan the barrel to be, and how thick a barrel are you going to choose? Will the barrel be swamped? Are you going to shoot only PRB, or are you going to want to shoot conicals,too? What Rate of Twist for the rifling are you choosing for your gun? For round ball, the old formula is to multiply your caliber by 120 to get the optimum rate of twist. The optimum ROT for a .50 is 1:60 inches. However, many guns shoot just fine with the more common 1:48. The 1:48 will also shoot short conicals, like Lee's LEAD bullet, very well in most guns. For longer conicals, you would need a faster ROT.

I am assuming you are not trying to make a ML .45-70, or, in this case, a .50-70. For deer, you don't need to be shooting conicals. But, In Michigan, you also have black bear, and you may want to have the option of having a heavier bullet( conical) in the event you get a shot at a bear. Small black bear are easily killed with a well placed shot from a .50 PRB. However, the emphasis is on " well-placed". Accuracy is everything.

Help us out with these answers and we can give you a better idea of any kind of recommendation.

I am building a Hawken styled rifle with a 32 inch barrel in .50 cal. using a 1 inch wide barrel and a 1:48 twist. I am thinking of putting a Lyman #57 globe front site on the gun with an aperature rear because my eyes are not what they used to be, and I am trying to stop kidding myself that I can still shoot open sights as well as I did 25 years ago. It won't be " PC " but this is a LH percussion gun, and Its not going to be Period Correct no matter what I do to it. I am thinking of having a machine shop taper the barrel .001" per inch beginning about 4 inches in front of the breechplug, except that the taper will end about 4 inches back on the top flat, and I will put a gentle curve to the original flat where I will mount the front sight. That way, I will be able to " feel " when I am getting close to the front sight as I slide the gun barrel in my hand in the dark, and, while it will be evident on profile, most other shooters will not notice anything different about the barrel. It will make the gun about an ounce lighter, but it will mostly give the barrel much more graceful lines.

I currently hunt with a 39" barreled, .50 caliber Tennessee Poor Boy Style rifle in Flint, so I understand your desire to have that Southern style gun. They are beautiful.

As to the story about that guy loading and shooting at the firing line, usually they won't let you load your gun at the line at Friendship. Perhaps that is a rule that has been passed since you saw this man shoot. I began going to Friendship in 1962, and I also remember some very good shooters I got to watch. Its also how I got the " Bug "( The Black Powder Bug ) , too. Welcome to the club.
 
paulvallendigham,

Thank you for the prompt reply!

To answer your questions, I plan to use the Green Mountain 42" x 7/8" straight octagon barrel with 1-70 twist. I always shoot PRB in my Hawken and intend to do the same with the Southern Mountain. I have always cast my own round balls.

My Hawken has a 1-48 twist which is a compromise for using conicals. I believe it would be more accurate with PRB if it had a slower twist.

My Hawken likes 80 gr. FFg and I probably will use a similar load in the Southern Mountain gun.

When I began hunting in the U.P. in 1970 my non-resident license was $36.00 for one deer and one bear. Last year I believe it was around $140 for one deer only. You have to get in a drawing for a non-resident bear license. I have no interest in shooting a bear. I missed a shot at one in 1974 and that was the only one I have seen while carring a gun.

I shoot smokeless powder loads in my .45-70 that are equivelent to blackpowder velocity loads. I have bulged more goose eggs in my steel target plate with the Hawken than I have with 405 gr. cast lead bullets. I have complete confidence in a .50 cal. PRB killing a deer or for that matter, a bear at under 100 yards.

Over thirty years is a long time to remember. Perhaps the Friendship shooter did step back from the line when shooting. In my memory, he did not. I hope someone reading this forum might recognize the shooter and the rifle I described.
 
Okay, thanks for answering the questions. That will be definitely a round ball ONLY gun with that slow rate of twist, and that thin barrel. The load you have chosen should be good in that gun out to 100 yds, so I think you are all set.

If I were getting a stock of that quality from Pecatonica( I have two stocks from them and they are outstanding pieces of wood) I would not stain the wood dark brown. I would choose a lighter brown color so that the fiddleback shows through the finish, as well as the grain. Why hide what you are paying extra dollars to buy? For the same reason, I agree with your decision to limit the amount of inlays or brass you put on such a gun. Pretty wood should be appreciated, and not covered up, IMHO.

I am not a fan of those long barrels. The only advantage for guys our age is that they get that front sight out there far enough for us to see it clearly. But, as I earlier indicated, I am taking a less " tradition" approach to the sights on my own guns. Its your gun, and you should have the barrel length that pleases you. I have a 14 " LOP on my .50, with the 39" barrel. Its long enough. If I made the gun over again, I would probably reduce that barrel length to 37 inches.

Your maximum efficient powder charge for that .50 cal. 42 inch barrel is 94.8 grains of FFg. Your 80 grain load is 84% of that maximum, which should prove very accurate.

The slow rate of twist you have chosen is not more accurate than the faster 1:48, but it is more " forgiving", which means that a few grains of powder higher or lower is going to put the ball in the same POI, whereas with the faster twist, a change in the powder charge of as little as 10 grains will move the POI noticeably.

One word of caution: If you are going to do the dovetails for the keys or sights, be very careful how deep they are cut. You don't have a lot of margin for error with that 7/8" barrel. You also don't need dovetails cut as deep as some of the commercial sights come with( You are suppose to file or machine them down to your requirements!) to hold the sights to the barrel.
 
I have built many of Pecatonica Rivers rifles and will be the first to say they sell a very good product and will stand behind it.
They will also give you help if you need it, but a better source of information is right here on this forum.

Were I you, I would have Pecatonica breech the barrel and install the barrel underlugs. I would also pay them the pittance that they ask to mill the sight dovetails. If you know the distance from the breech that you want the rear sight to be installed at, tell them what it is and they will put it there for you.
I would not have them install the butt plate unless you know what length of pull you want to have. If they don't install it, you will have about 2 inches of extra wood to cut off the butt, but you can install it right where you want it to be. (Yes, this is extra work and can take quite a few hours to finish but IMO, it's not that difficult.)

Be sure to buy a copy of "The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle" or a similar book. Dick (owner of Pecatonica River) will sell you the book and include it with your rifle parts).

I have found that Pecatonica Rivers #3 grade Curly Maple gives the most stripes/dollar. His higher grade wood is better, but it costs quite a bit more than the #3.

The Durs Egg lock that I used on one of my first rifles was a good, fast lock.

Davis set triggers are excellent.

IMO, the 42 inch barrel will seem a bit muzzle heavy, but the 7/8 inch octagon is a good compromise. I would not suggest using a larger diameter barrel.

All in all, for a good, plain rifle, I think you've made a wise choice, but remember, these "kits" are not much more than a box of rough parts. A LOT of filing, sanding, inlaying, drilling, tapping and general work goes into building one of these.
Expect to spend at least 120 hours on it. I spent over 180 hours on my first "kit" from PR (and at the risk of sounding like I'm bragging it came out so nice that folks would walk 40 yards out of their way to admire it).

Let us know what you end up getting and don't forget, some of the best rifle builders around are right here on this Forum to help you with any question you might have.
zonie :)


PS: Before you guys jump on him about using the straight octagon barrel, remember, he is not into re-enacting and Period Correct stuff.
I won't be surprised when you tell him about the goodness of a swamped barrel because, as we all know, it removes the muzzle heaviness and improves the balance but, then again, it costs an extra $100+ and I don't know if PR offers the Southern Mountain rifle with a swamped barrel. :grin:
 
I agree with Zonie 100%. I have been to Dick's shop a couple of times, and visited his booth at Friendship so many times, they know me. They are terrific to do business with. But, take Zonie's suggestion on the quality of wood to buy. The money you save there can be spent on needed tools, or to have PR do this other work for you.

We have absolutely terrific builders who regularly contribute to this forum. Their works are simply awesome, and they are often kind enough to all of us by posting pictures of some of their creations. If you have a question about how to do something, and its not covered in the books, or any of the video films now available to help you finish the gun, by all means, ASK! That is one of the special things about this forum that makes it so much more than a chat room, and more like an Adult Education class on building and shooting muzzle loaders.
 
A straight barrel and a Durs egg Lock would be entirely correct on a Southern Mountain gun from about 1810-1820 or so. I have a .50 cal mountain gun I built about 25 years ago with a 15/16ths barrel and its a tad muzzle heavy--but I like it that way.
 
I agree with all of that except the choice of lock. I would use a Chambers Ketland lock rather than a Durrs Egg lock. Lifetime warranty on the Chambers lock. :thumbsup:
 
Here's my Gillespie North Carolina style rifle built by Ken Guy. It has a 15/16ths .50 caliber 38" Rice barrel that isn't swamped. The Lock is a Chambers Late Ketland. I really like it.
[url] http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/Packdog1/Mathew Gillespie/?sc=1[/url]

The stock is actually a Leman precarve. If you plan to hunt I'd get either a 15/16ths .50 or a 7/8ths .54 caliber barrel to keep the weight down.
 
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Ken makes some real nice TN rifles & I have looked at his work In Hand many times. Were I to have someone build me a TN rifle, Ken is the guy I would have do it. He is a great guy, an easy person to work with, & most accomodating. :thumbsup:

You can get a 13/16" barrel in a 50 cal also, should you wish to slim & lighten it down. I bought 2 of them from Getz a few years ago at Friendship to save for some slim TN rifles.

The next rifle I build after finishing this York I am working on will be a TN or a Gillespie rifle, have not decided which one yet but have the stocks & parts all here for both.
 
Oops! I meant 13/16ths .50. I believe that's what mine is.

Dennis Glazener's book on Gillespie rifles is an excellent source for photographs of original southern "Hog Rifles"
[url] http://home.att.net/~t.glazener/wsb/html/view.cgi-image.html--SiteID-674903.html[/url]
 
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Nice looker Mark. :thumbsup: How much can one expect to save in weight by going with a swamped barrel Vrs, the straight one. Is it in pounds or oz..

How do you guys rate the " The Art Of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle amongt other Longrifle building books.....I ask because down the road at some point I plan to build a Hawken Flinter from it. they did make Flinters in Hawkens, right?
Hope this is not too far off topic.

Twice B.
 
Yes, I have seen book, & the stock with trim I have for the Gillespie rifle came from Dennis. One of the TN stocks I have came from Pecatonica & another one I have came from Tip Curtis, both of them being grade 6 stocks & should make very nice rifles.

The problem that seems to keep coming up is my work keeps getting in the way of my hobbies ! :hmm:
 
The Hawken brothers started making rifles in the flint period. The bulk of their production was during the percussion lock time. Very few of the flint rifles survived and some of those have been possible conversions from flint to percussion.

There is a Sam Hawken marked flint rifle from his time in Ohio. That rifle is very much a Lancaster styled rifle with brass furniture. The early flint Hawkens have a distinctive flattened scroll iron trigger guard and a full stock. The barrel would be swamped or tapered.
 
Thanks Granedier. That's what I thought since I don't see any advertised by supply houses as kits or otherwise......

Wasn't Jerimiah Johnsons (in the movie)Hawken a Flinter, or do I have the wrong make..
Twice B.
 
Mark, if that is a Grn. Mtn. or a Rice barrel, and .50 cal it is a 7/8" or 15/16" as they don't make it in a 13/16". Largest bore most make in the 13/16" is a .45 cal. However, Getz does make a .50 in 13/16" now & then. I am not positive but I don't remember Ken using any Getz barrels in his TN or Southern rifles. :hmm:
 
Since you are in west central Ohio, you might want to take a ride up to Lodi Ohio to Log Cabin and actually look at & shoulder some rifles to insure what you want before ya buy parts & start building. The reason I says that is looks are one thing, but not fitting ya when you are finished is a bummer. (been there done that years ago) Trying differnt styles of rifles & sFeeling how they handle & balance & etc. makes a dif. and you may like the swamped barrel vs. the straight, etc. because the weight dif is not allot but the balance is extremely different, thus best to shoulder both, IMHO.

I just love the looks of a big Hawken rifle, but I don't feel comfortable shooting them...... Some like the Hawken styles vs a Lancaster or a Tn rifle.... You need to find what fits & feels good rather than picking a "look" ya like, if you have not investigated the dif. styles. :hmm: just a thought.....
 
Thanks for the kind words gentlemen. It was a 7/8 x .50 x 38" length barrel if I remember right. Rice used to make 38" length straight barrels as one of his standard stock barrels. That was a real good length for that size barrel and bore size.
Ken
 
Thank you all for the great responses to my question!

PAULVALLENDIGHAM - Thank you for the suggestion on a shorter barrel. This was also a concern of mine. The shorter barrel Hawken would be better for the Michigan swamps where I want to use the muzzleloader. I admire and envey you for building a Hawken. That is my favorite style rifle and is the reason I went with the T/C kit thirty years ago. I wish I had a PC Hawken. Perhaps that is what I should build. But, I like the half stock Hawken and a flint lock on a half stock would probably not be too PC. Besides, I already have a Hawken that fits me like a glove and shoots well for deer hunting. My objective is to have a flinter and learn to use it skillfully.

ZONIE - Thank you for the endorsement of Pecatonica Rifle. Also for your suggestion on the LOP. My T/C Hawken is perfect fit for me. When I bring it to my shoulder the front sight is exactly in the rear sight. It has a 14 1/4" LOP. The Southern Mountain rifle stock might require a different LOP for the same effect. I got a copy of "The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle" two years ago and have read it from cover to cover several times. It is well worth it just for the information on care and shooting of a muzzleloader. Finishing the parts is no problem for me and I enjoy doing that. The inletting and drilling and fitting is what makes me nervous about building another rifle. The Dixon book makes it sound so easy that "even a caveman can do it". I just do not want to screw anything up by a mistake.

BIRDDOG6 - Thank you for the Siler lock recommendation. I will approach Pecatonica about the possibility of them inletting for that lock. Also thank you for the suggestion of fitting various guns at Log Cabin in Lodi. It is about a two hour drive for me.

SHELBY SKINNER - Thank you for your testimony that you prefer a muzzle heavy gun. I like them also. The swamped barrel everyone suggested was great but Pecatonica does not appear to offer inletting for that type of barrel. Also I am wondering if a poor hunter in the southern mountains getting a plain gun could have afforded a swamped barrel in that period.

MARK LEWIS - Thank you for the photos and your suggestions. I enjoy reading your knowledgeable posts.

Perhaps I should take some time off in September and make a trip to Friendship once again for a couple of days and look around before I make my decision. I have a bad habit of not taking enough time off from my busy seven day a week occupation to do things I would like to do.

Again, thank you all for your help.

APPLEJACK
 
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