Did I do something Stupid??

[Crew Chief]

If you temper a frizzen at or over 500-700 degrees it will soften too much.

Kibler uses 1095 steel for his frizzens i think……

I hardened a few 1095 frizzens a few months back. I heated them to 1600 for 35 - 45 min and then quenched in room temperature mineral oil, worked very well.

I drew back the entire frizzen at 375 for 1 hour.

For the blue color on a frizzen I would use a chemical blue.

You could possibly oxide the frizzen in a solution of boiled nitre salts

In retrospect, I should have cold blued it all. Jim will fix it and I will cold blue the frizzen when it gets back.

 

[deerstalkert]

we all pay for our education whether we go to college or just grade school!
some like your self are man enough to share that education with others.
I would be hiding under the bed before i shared some of my doozeys with the world!
like the time i opened the choke on a shotgun with a brake hone.
dang its dusty under this bed!

 

[Horse]

we all pay for our education whether we go to college or just grade school!
some like your self are man enough to share that education with others.
I would be hiding under the bed before i shared some of my doozeys with the world!
like the time i opened the choke on a shotgun with a brake hone.
dang its dusty under this bed!

Yeah, I'm runin outta of friends to blame stuff on. Now I just say "I ment to do that!"

 

[Crew Chief]

we all pay for our education whether we go to college or just grade school!
some like your self are man enough to share that education with others.
I would be hiding under the bed before i shared some of my doozeys with the world!
like the time i opened the choke on a shotgun with a brake hone.
dang its dusty under this bed!

Thank you sir. My dad was a mechanic and he told me to screw up my own stuff, that way I could learn from it. Hope this helps another soul not to make the same mistake.

 

[Horse]

Yeah, I'm runin outta of friends to blame stuff on. Now I just say "I ment to do that!"

 

[deerstalkert]

or the time i had a 6 inch tapered breech end and filed the bolster on the plate to lay tight on the barrel flat. the wrong way.
heechoo! dang i need to vacuum under this bed.

 

[Oberst]

That’s the problem in the world today. Mistakes are not forgiven but are actually the best learning experiences we can have.

 

[M. De Land]

In a shop you see your fair share of broken parts. From that I would say the real issue is improperly subjecting parts to heat and cooling under less than controlled circumstances. Anyone else agree that "fire bluing" be limited to small parts where wear/durability is not an issue

I agree but some who heat things beyond redhot and quench in whatever available may be the real problem, Seen stuff shatter when dropped on a concrete floor or just snap off on even minimal impact. Brazing the parts back together doesn't really work either as they just break elsewhere.

Steel with enough carbon in it to harden will harden to various levels it's not just one amount of hardness available. Folks tend to get the idea that with gun parts it's file hard or nothing and this just isn't so. For instance 1095 spring stock can be hardened to Rc66 but is useless unless the brittleness is drawn.
The 95 stands for .95 percent carbon added to the alloy. It can be tempered to Rc 62 which is file hard at 400 F draw or it can be as low as Rc 40 with a 1200 F temper draw.
With modern alloy steel we can harden them all the way through instead of only case hardening them and adjust the level of hardness by drawing the temper.

Just a novice question here, but is the cock usually hardened, or just left as cast? On the rare times I've seen them fail, they usually break and not bend -so I've thought the frizzen and cock are both hardened.

Another simple test of relative hardness is to check them with a simple spring loaded prick punch. File a smooth spot near the edge on the back of the cock and lock plate then with a solid backing do a test dimple near but not on the edge. The diameter and distortion around the test hole can be compared to a known metal you have for comparative hardness. It won't give you a number but will definitely show a comparison of hardness.
The cock I tested the other day with a file shows definite signs of hardness over mild cold role steel with the prick punch test I compared it to. It' s a better test than with a file as a file will cut into many levels of hardness less than itself just as a HSS bit will.
I think folks get the notion that with locks there can only be two levels of hardness, dead soft as cast or file hard. Harden-able carbon steel can have the temper drawn (hardness) to many levels so that strength can be added without brittleness. 1095 spring stock for instance can be tempered to a Rockwell C scale of 62 with a 400 degree F draw or Rc of 40 with a 1200 degree draw , A typical HSS bit will be 63-65 Rc .

 

[Crew Chief]

Here is the latest. I got a call from Lorie at Kibler Longrifiles telling me she is shipping my lock back today. That is a pretty fast turn around since I mailed it to them last Thursday. Jim looked the lock over and all he did was replace the frizzen with a new one. Not worth his time to fix the old one. Everything else was good. The bill was $40.00 with shipping. That was reasonable since he only charged me for the new frizzen and no labor. Great people to deal with. I told Lorie that I was embarassed by this screw up. She was kind and said you won't be the last. Hopefully the new guys out there can learn from my mistake.

I will report on the finished SMR after Thanksgiving.

 

[Horse]

All is well that ends well. Thanks for keeping us posted.

 

[Oberst]

Here is the latest. I got a call from Lorie at Kibler Longrifiles telling me she is shipping my lock back today. That is a pretty fast turn around since I mailed it to them last Thursday. Jim looked the lock over and all he did was replace the frizzen with a new one. Not worth his time to fix the old one. Everything else was good. The bill was $40.00 with shipping. That was reasonable since he only charged me for the new frizzen and no labor. Great people to deal with. I told Lorie that I was embarassed by this screw up. She was kind and said you won't be the last. Hopefully the new guys out there can learn from my mistake.

I will report on the finished SMR after Thanksgiving.

Everyone there should be the case study for how to run a business. Top quality product. Continuously improve product. Deliver premier customer service and have genuinely NICE people working there.

 

[Nemo Vir]

Just got my copy of Muzzle Blast. Its got an article on tuning a lock. Appears to be about measuring spring strength. Hopefully it becomes a series.

 

[Flintandsteel]

For anyone wondering, I’d be VERY careful arguing about heat treatment, metallurgy with Wick Ellerbe.
This man has produced and heat treated (successfully) more knives than anyone else I can think of.
He KNOWS what he’s talking about, and has been doing it for years. Just ask anyone who owns one of his.(I have 3)
Go get ‘em Wick!

 

[M. De Land]

Steel with enough carbon in it to harden will harden to various levels it's not just one amount of hardness available. Folks tend to get the idea that with gun parts it's file hard or nothing and this just isn't so. For instance 1095 spring stock can be hardened to Rc66 but is useless unless the brittleness is drawn.
The 95 stands for .95 percent carbon added to the alloy. It can be tempered to Rc 62 which is file hard at 400 F draw or it can be as low as Rc 40 with a 1200 F temper draw.
With modern alloy steel we can harden them all the way through instead of only case hardening them and adjust the level of hardness by drawing the temper.

Another simple test of relative hardness is to check them with a simple spring loaded prick punch. File a smooth spot near the edge on the back of the cock and lock plate then with a solid backing do a test dimple near but not on the edge. The diameter and distortion around the test hole can be compared to a known metal you have for comparative hardness. It won't give you a number but will definitely show a comparison of hardness.
The cock I tested the other day with a file shows definite signs of hardness over mild cold role steel with the prick punch test I compared it to. It' s a better test than with a file as a file will cut into many levels of hardness less than itself just as a HSS bit will.
I think folks get the notion that with locks there can only be two levels of hardness, dead soft as cast or file hard. Harden-able carbon steel can have the temper drawn (hardness) to many levels so that strength can be added without brittleness. 1095 spring stock for instance can be tempered to a Rockwell C scale of 62 with a 400 degree F draw or Rc of 40 with a 1200 degree draw , A typical HSS bit will be 63-65

For anyone wondering, I’d be VERY careful arguing about heat treatment, metallurgy with Wick Ellerbe.
This man has produced and heat treated (successfully) more knives than anyone else I can think of.
He KNOWS what he’s talking about, and has been doing it for years. Just ask anyone who owns one of his.(I have 3)
Go get ‘em Wick!

For anyone wondering, I’d be VERY careful arguing about heat treatment, metallurgy with Wick Ellerbe.
This man has produced and heat treated (successfully) more knives than anyone else I can think of.
He KNOWS what he’s talking about, and has been doing it for years. Just ask anyone who owns one of his.(I have 3)
Go get ‘em Wick!

I completely agree.................. if we were discussing knives !

 

[Flintandsteel]

We're discussing steel, and heat treating. The same regardless of its application.
Its easy to see that you are always right.
You should listen to old people, they know stuff!

 

[M. De Land]

We're discussing steel, and heat treating. The same regardless of its application.
Its easy to see that you are always right.
You should listen to old people, they know stuff!

I am 73 and have been active without stop in gun building and repair (this includes machining, welding and heat treating steel) since 1980 and completion of gun school. I've learned a few things as well and guns aren't knives !
And by the way, application does absolutely influence how steel is properly heat treated to meet the requirements needed.
Have I been wrong about certain points on occasion , yup , just like any one else, but when I believe I'm correct about a point I stand until proven wrong then correct my data base and proceed glad to have better information .

 

[NorthFork]

Someone needs to do a video on tuning or fixing a lock. It seems to me no one wants to talk about it as though it’s some trade secret.

I agree 100%. I've asked in the past and heard nothing but crickets.

 

[FlinterNick]

Kibler uses investment 1095 steel for their frizzens. I had this discussions with Wick a few months back and the most certainly need to be oil quenched for a maxium RC of 60-62. No need to carburize just harden and temper back at 375 until you get a uniform straw color. I had a lot of success using room temperature mineral oil, actually worked a lot better than parks AAA.

 

[deerstalkert]

Kibler uses investment 1095 steel for their frizzens. I had this discussions with Wick a few months back and the most certainly need to be oil quenched for a maxium RC of 60-62. No need to carburize just harden and temper back at 375 until you get a uniform straw color. I had a lot of success using room temperature mineral oil, actually worked a lot better than parks AAA.

this is the information that is priceless to us back yard butchers. only better would be if the terms such as carburized were defined.

 

[FlinterNick]

this is the information that is priceless to us back yard butchers. only better would be if the terms such as carburized were defined.

Carburizing is dipping the heated part into a compound mixture that is designed to increase the surface hardness of low carbon steels by adding carbon. And then quenching it in water, hot or room temp depending on the part, its an effective way to heat treat some lower carbon steels used for frizzens such as 6150 steel or 8620 steel and 4140, basically helps them produce a better spark.

Well known as casenite which is cancelled, cherry red and Brownells has its own formula.