Different Flintlock "Styles"

[Vic Price]

I'm looking at acquiring (or building) a flintlock rifle as others are here and I'm studying the different styles of rifles that appeal to me - so far anyway. I'm looking at the longrifle of the 1770-1800 period which typically uses a swamped barrel and I'm also looking at the Southern Mountain style which appears to typically use a straight barrel of 36-42". Are the Southern rifles fairly well balanced - at least compared to the York or Haines longrifles ?

Regards, Vic

 

[Goldhunter]

TraderVic, from my experiences, a LR with a swamped barrel has a much better balance than a LR with the same length straight barreled. Swamped barreled rifles just seem to lay and steady on your target better. But that's my opinion.

However, I will eventually build a southern Mtn with a straight barrel because I like the look and would like to have one. :wink:

 

[rich pierce]

Current kits and parts sets for Southern mountain rifles have straight barrels 36-42" in length, which are typically a lot lighter than the originals, which almost never had barre;s as short as 36", and were rarely much under 15/16" in diameter. Those iron-mounted squirrel rifles weighed 9-12 pounds.

But nowadays most folks make them with barrels not so stout, to keep the weight in the 8-9 pound range, sometimes below that.

 

[Vic Price]

Regarding the Southern Mtn rifles, what caliber range were these rifles made ? What were the most common bores on them ? I've seen "kits" with 13/16, 7/8 or 15/16 barrels which suggest a range of 32 - 54 or 58 cal.

Are the Southern Mtn style rifles with straight barrels pretty good in a match environment ? I reckon it's contingent with the shooter, but...

Regards, Vic

 

[excess650]

I'm a fan of both swamped barrels, and stocks with broad butts and very little drop. The early Lancaster style rifles fit this description.

I think that you'll find the SM rifles to be a bit, or quite a bit, more muzzle heavy. Their stocks usually have quite a bit of drop, and pretty narrow on the buttplate with a considerable crescent shape. One made with a small barrel like 13/16" in a smaller caliber might be just fine.

The early Virginia rifle is similar to the early Lancaster, but uses a round faced lock.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Regarding the Southern Mtn rifles, what caliber range were these rifles made ? What were the most common bores on them ? I've seen "kits" with 13/16, 7/8 or 15/16 barrels which suggest a range of 32 - 54 or 58 cal.

.30 to about .45. very long at 42 to 48" and very heavy as Rich said, maybe as much as 14lbs at the heaviest. 1" barrels aren't uncommon. Most the originals I have handles are swamped, but not like today's swamped barrels. Usually a swamped 'blob"at either end.
We don't tend to build these today "as they were".

 

[Tom Compton]

So Mtn rifle, 7/8", .40 cal 42" long. Liked the per-suction so well, duplicated it w/ a flinter. Outstanding match and hunting arms.

 

[Vic Price]

.30 to about .45. very long at 42 to 48" and very heavy as Rich said, maybe as much as 14lbs at the heaviest. 1" barrels aren't uncommon. Most the originals I have handles are swamped, but not like today's swamped barrels. Usually a swamped 'blob"at either end.
We don't tend to build these today "as they were".[/quote]

Mike,

I was wondering if any of the SM rifles used swamped barrels. Is there a reason ( other than expense ) why no one builds these rifles with swamped barrels or offers stocks inletted for the same ? I suppose if one wants to build one -you just go with a straight 42" barrel. Are these rifles usually muzzle heavy ?

Thanks, Vic

 

[steve nagy]

Limited experience talking here but the swamped barrel rifles tend to point faster and easier than a straight barrel; however the straight barrel rifles tend to steady better in the off-hand when a prolonged hold is needed that swamped rifles. My avatar is a southern mountain .50 with a straight Green Mountain barrel.

 

[nchawkeye]

Trader...I have a Bob Watts flintlock that has a 13/16 barrel, 42 inches and .40 caliber...It started as a .45 but I converted it...I use it for both matches and hunting, no problems...

As long as you stay with a 7/8 or a 13/16 barrel of 38-42 inches I don't think weight will be a problem...

 

[redwing]

Most or all of the SMRs that were flinters are swamped. The later cap rifles had hammer forged straight wall barrels. I have seen SMRs with full taper to very little taper. Yes, they were long some 46" or 48" and heavy. In the modern SMRs a 44" Rice round bottom with taper and flare makes a nice rifle. Caliber it is what ever you like .32 to .62 if you choose. The thing to keep in mind is the narrow butt and drop can cause a recoil problem. I have a .54 SMR and with the 90 and 100 gr. loads it bites. I have a Getz barreled Virginia that is very comfortable with its wide butt.

 

[Vic Price]

Interesting...........if most of the original SMR's were swamped, then why are they all sold with straight barrels and/or inletted stocks not available for a swamped barrel option - without going totally custom ? I'm just asking questions as I'm interested in different flintlock styles and weighing different attributes to decide what style to choose when I get there. Obviously cost is a factor in some instances and maybe preference in others. I reckon if I want a swamped barrel rifle, I should steer towards a Pennsylvania/Kentucky or similar longrifle. Even if I narrowed it down to these styles, the decision is still a challenge with caliber, weight, etc. An example of this would be a York rifle ( 40-50 cal ) or a Haines rifle ( 50 or 54 cal ). I have a 54 percussion ( Lyman GPR ) and would likely stay with this for whitetails and use the flinter for recreational shooting mostly, but eventually using it for hunting deer would be a nice option. Here in WI a muzzleloading rifle must be 40 cal (min), which seems a bit light. I'll continue to read and ask questions as I learn more from all of you here. Thanks !

Regards, Vic

 

[Mike Brooks]

Most all the mountain rifles didn't have swamped barrels, unless you call a 6" blob at either end swamped. These guns all had hand forged barrels made on site. If you want to include guns that weren't entirely made in the mountains and had "store bought" barrels then you can include straight barrels. I don't think I have ever seen an original mountain rifle with a swamped barrel as we make them today.
I have had access to one of the largest mountain rifle collections in the country and I'm just reporting on what I saw.
These days you can get just about any gunmaker to build your mountain rifle any way you prefer, straight, swamped or otherwise.

 

[redwing]

What do you call those rifles, with what you call a 6" blobe on each end? No they don't all look like todays taper and flare. That said, I have also looked at and own many fine orginal SMRs. And you don't find that many flinters with out the blobs. I like swamped better than blobe. :hmm:

 

[Mike Brooks]

I guess about all you can call the barrels with the "blobs" on the end is swamped, but they certainly aren't swamped like today's barrels as you know. They also seem to be straight or nearly so between the "blobs". I have often wondered if it was possible to turn the barrel end for end and still have it fit in the stock....
I've been into Jerry Nobel's collection, that's the collection I've been basing my comments on, I figure that collection is probably a pretty good representation of old mountain rifles.
But, there are always exceptions, I had a coin silver mounted Bean rifle come through here a few years ago, with a back action shotgun lock on it, covered with inlays.I believe it's in Jerry's books somewhere....never say never! :wink:

 

[Vic Price]

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my comments as I wasn't trying to. I appreciate your feedback and information.

Regards, vic

 

[Richard A Carroll]

TraderVic:

I shoot a number of flinters. I have a .32, .40 .45 .50 swamped long rifles, as well as 32 tapered, .40 .45 .50 .54 straight barrel and a .62 Oct to round barrel. I think the straight barrel guns just might hold better if you hold them on target for a long time (over 10 seconds)

But, we all have a wobble factor, and I believe a gun should be mounted, sighted and fired, In smooth succession.

If you do not mount the gun with the sights aligned on the target (maybe not zeroed in, but at least sighted in), then put it down and remount it, then shoot it, don't hold it and hope.

I don't see many times when you have to "hold" a gun on target long enough that the difference between "swamped" and "straight"barrels make enough difference that it really counts. Now when we talk about how the gun balances and feels in your hands, give me a swamped barrel every time.

The previous was my opinion, not necessarily the opinion of management.

 

[redwing]

We can agree on that. I know of a rifle marked only "Crain New Orleans, La." This rifle is in a collection in SLC Utah. It is very slim with a very finely swamped barrel, yes it would compare with a new Rice or Getz. :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

We can agree on that. I know of a rifle marked only "Crain New Orleans, La." This rifle is in a collection in SLC Utah. It is very slim with a very finely swamped barrel, yes it would compare with a new Rice or Getz. :thumbsup:

Yep, always exceptions. :thumbsup:

 

[Goldhunter]

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my comments as I wasn't trying to. I appreciate your feedback and information.

Regards, vic

Trader, no one is offended. One of the biggest reasons I like this place is the wealth of knowledge from cross the country. The nuggets of info that are discussed are great! These are just discussions. :hatsoff: These guys know what they're talking about, so sit back and learn. :wink:

redwing, what collection is that you're talking about, the one in SLC? Private I'm guessing?