Dog Lock RIfles?

[Ike Godsey]

i have seen a YouTube video. a part of it was the story of the green mountain boys in the AWI.
its leader, used (in the film) a "rifle" with a dog lock.

in the film they talked about a rifle and they explained the pros and cons compared to a musket.

- are there dog lock rifles known to exist? (maybe you guys got much better infos then we here in germany)

- if there are dog lock rifles, are there any links or pics (could not find any ) that you're willing to share?

thanks,
ike

 

[Loyalist Dave]

If Mr. Allen did have a dog-lock rifle, it was probably with a recycled lock, or he had an older piece that was later fitted with a rifle barrel. as the dog-lock fell out of use in the 1720's, and rifled pieces were not very popular at the time when the dog-lock was prominent..., so I suppose he could've had a rifle of 50+ years of age. It would be very cool if he did for it would probably predate the earliest known example of an American Long Rifle.

On the other hand it could simply be that some historians don't understand that the term "rifle" is not interchangeable with fusil or musket. There have been instances in the past when folks simply assumed that a civilian long gun was called a "rifle", when in fact it was a fusil, fowler, or trade gun.

LD

 

[Dphar]

Why would there NOT be dog lock rifles?
Rifles go back to pre-flintlock times.
In 1688 10% of a 500 man Militia force in New York were rifle armed. But we have no idea what the locks were.
Dan

 

[Ike Godsey]

On the other hand it could simply be that some historians don't understand that the term "rifle" is not interchangeable with fusil or musket. There have been instances in the past when folks simply assumed that a civilian long gun was called a "rifle", when in fact it was a fusil, fowler, or trade gun.

nope. that was not the case in the film. they pointed out that with a rifle there are shots possible over a distance far more than 100 yards accurate and almost every sot could hit a man size target on that distance. so they were reffering to a rifle - not a smoothie.

the question that's pops up is, in the AWI or around it - why shouldn't it be possible that doglock rifles are around? build form scratch, a old doglock, a stock (used one maybe?) a rifled barrel some trimmings, thats it. cheap, accurate. good hunter possibly. will do its job for years if taken with good care....

 

[Ike Godsey]

here ist the movie - it is 1:27:33 long. the movie is referring to Daniel Morgan. its "story" in the movie starts at around 1:00:00 - take a look.

ike

 

[Zonie]

The Dog Lock was the British answer to improving the Snaphaunce (1580). This Dog Lock came into use in the very early 1600's.

The improvement of this lock involved installing a rotating 'catch' or 'dog' behind the pivot of the cock.
This could be hooked into the cock creating, in effect, a "half cock" position to make the gun safer to carry and to load.

Like the snaphaunce, the English Dog Lock used a sliding sear that passed thru the lockplate to engage or release the cock.

About the same time that the Dog Lock was being developed and used in England, the French were developing and using the true Flintlock (1630) with its internal tumbler notched for a half cock and full cock position.

In the 1650-1670 time period, the superiority of the French Flintlock became widely recognized and the Dog Lock fell from favor, even in England.

It should be noted that this was at least 80 years before the FI War and 100 years before the AWI.

It's only my opinion but I think the author of the story thought the unique Dog Lock would add interest but he failed to do his homework on the time periods of the various firelocks in use.

(I noted when watching the link shortly after the 1 hour mark, the author also said that rifling was an American invention. Of course, we all know this isn't true.)

 

[tenngun]

Thre is an old advertisment for a shoot that there was a prize for a snaphance rifle. This was from the 1730s.Dog locks were just a few years out of date at this time as was the snaphance.The old boys hated throwing away anything :idunno:

 

[tallbear]

Actually Dog locks were still being used on English muskets into the 1720's.These locks featured both half cock knotches and the external dogs.Since they were outdated in Europe good numbers of them were imported into this country.There are a number of muskets and fowlers who are stylistly of the rev war period with dog locks on them.It is not out of the realm of possibilty that there were rifles stocked during the Rev war using an out dated or recycled Dog Lock.

Mitch Yates

 

[krolick]

The true dog lock as we refer to it became outdated by mid 18th Century. The dog catch which acted as a safety/half cock against the back of the cock was still in use into the percussion era. The Dutch and Scandinavian countries were particularly fond of that system. To see some examples, take a look through the book "British Military Flintlock Rifles" by De Witt Bailey. For example, page 96, there are 3 "dog lock" Jager rifles used during the rev. war. Also on page 114 in "The Age of Firearms" by R.Held there is a nice line drawing of a Russion flint military rifle which has a dog lock circa 1830s. Also, look through the TRS catalog. There are many more examples. GS

 

[Lorne Johnson]

So I take it the dog lock was curtailed?

 

[krolick]

The dog or catch was carried over to the flintlock era. Originally, the dog was used to hold the old snaphaunces at half cock when they were altered a more efficient system. Then the English locks, the true dog lock, used it as an auxiliary half cock. Its one of those ideas that never quite went away. Even some caplock guns have this. Hope that helps. GS

 

[M. De Land]

I'm still not sure what you are talking about, got a good picture I can see. MD

 

[Ike Godsey]

I'm still not sure what you are talking about, got a good picture I can see. MD

GRIN - your are a smart guy M.D.

ok, i will tell you the story...
i have my hands on a curry gun that has a blowen out breech plug.
it is a copy of a french 1717 musket, with its unique bridle on the frizzen/pan. like i said the (prooftested) barrel has a blown out breech plug, i could have the demaged musket for around 150 euros, wich is VERY cheap.

i bought it, tested the lock, it works throws a good shower of sparks, but needs some tuning. looking up to the "india gun dealer" in frence, the 1717 lock is there 178 euros plus shipping - so i guess i made a good deal.

since i have an used barrel from a 1757 spanish musket on hand, i thought i will put the barrel in this 1717 stock. i will add some wedding bands and make the gun look like and old french fuzzee.

then i ran across the movie (above) and thougth about a rifled barrel, and a dog catch behind the hammer of my 1717 lock - just to make it look a bit more "private" not so "military style".
but all i could have on rifled barrels is way too expensive and not long enough.

so i deceided to continue with a smoothie (12GA), a 43 inch barrel and put this in the stock. i just found out that i have to shorten the stock for about 1.5 inch 'cause of the shorter spanish barrel.

but i still like the idea of adding a dog catch behind the hammer of my 1717 lock.

i will continue (in the smoothbore section) on what will happen. will also show you guys some pics, when the work is done...

comments?

ike

 

[M. De Land]

No, I'm not so smart, I really don't know nor have ever heard of what a dog lock is! I assumed it is some variant of a flintlock and why it was posted here. I'm pretty new to flintlocks as all mine have always been caplocks. MD

 

[Ike Godsey]

No, I'm not so smart, I really don't know nor have ever heard of what a dog lock is! I assumed it is some variant of a flintlock and why it was posted here. I'm pretty new to flintlocks as all mine have always been caplocks. MD

OK, look here, that is a good example of a dog lock
http://www.shotgunnews.com/2012/06...tish-king-george-1st-doglock-colonels-musket/

ike

 

[Carteret Kid]

I'm still not sure what you are talking about, got a good picture I can see. MD

GRIN - your are a smart guy M.D.

ok, i will tell you the story...
i have my hands on a curry gun that has a blowen out breech plug.
it is a copy of a french 1717 musket, with its unique bridle on the frizzen/pan. like i said the (prooftested) barrel has a blown out breech plug, i could have the demaged musket for around 150 euros, wich is VERY cheap.

i bought it, tested the lock, it works throws a good shower of sparks, but needs some tuning. looking up to the "india gun dealer" in frence, the 1717 lock is there 178 euros plus shipping - so i guess i made a good deal.

since i have an used barrel from a 1757 spanish musket on hand, i thought i will put the barrel in this 1717 stock. i will add some wedding bands and make the gun look like and old french fuzzee.

then i ran across the movie (above) and thougth about a rifled barrel, and a dog catch behind the hammer of my 1717 lock - just to make it look a bit more "private" not so "military style".
but all i could have on rifled barrels is way too expensive and not long enough.

so i deceided to continue with a smoothie (12GA), a 43 inch barrel and put this in the stock. i just found out that i have to shorten the stock for about 1.5 inch 'cause of the shorter spanish barrel.

but i still like the idea of adding a dog catch behind the hammer of my 1717 lock.

i will continue (in the smoothbore section) on what will happen. will also show you guys some pics, when the work is done...

comments?

ike

Ike, its sound like you will have a wonderfull example of a composite militia musket as was used during the Rev War. And best of all, you will have the only one like it. :hatsoff: Will look foward to the pictures.

 

[rich pierce]

I have seen one dog lock rifle- a Dutch piece, late 1600's. yes, I believe it is a rifle though it was in an auction catalogue and you can never trust them. It had double set triggers and a rear sight, making it believable. Check it out, and don't drool on the keyboard.

I do not think a dog-lock rifle made in the colonies at a much later date than 1680-1720 is likely. It seems much more likely that a gunsmith with an old dog lock would use it in making a cheap composite musket. Rifles were expensive by comparison to muskets because of the labor of rifling the barrel. Why dog it up by putting on an outdated lock? Could happen, but seems unlikely unless nothing else was available.

 

[B.Habermehl]

I had the opertunity to handle a club but rifle with front and rear sights and a dog lock with really good rev war provenance. Was it straight rifled? The butstock was marked Boyington. Unfortunately only a small part of this gun was pictured in Grinsdale's fowler book. BJH

 

[rich pierce]

BJ, was the barrel round or octagonal or oct to round? Any other clues?

 

[M. De Land]

Ok, thanks, I did see one once in a book but had know idea what I was looking at. Learned something today.
Is this an early safety or for knapping the flint? MD