Early 1500s Snapping Matchlock carbine

[Pukka Bundook]

Hard to say if this is the earliest form of snaplock, but think it will be contemporary with some of the others. It's a neat idea, produced in a time of innovation, when all sorts of idas were being tried out. The spring in the "finger groove" area is indeed novel and worth a try, even if we these days are used to using the right hand (rear hand) to discharge the piece.
as the earliest for of fixed ignition is the s shaped lever of the hand-gonne, I don't see this as being the first snap lock, more just another alley explored!
Myself I think it was someone improving on the button, or seeing if they could simplify the button, and they apparently Did!

 

[rickystl]

Gentlemen: This is a great Thread. I'm not as familiar with the matchlock development as with other locks. So I'm learning much from this Thread. Thanks.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Here are a couple artistic examples of matchlocks that could be left side locks for right handed shooting, or the artist's own invention

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Thanks Richard and RickyStL for your comments! And it gets to the hear to the matter ... on some of this stuff ... "We just don't know!"

But I for one, find the development and evolution to be both intriguging and highly interesting ... oh, and wicked cool!

 

[hectorintca]

Yes, handgonnes started out with “lit by punk” by the shooter or perhaps by the 2nd person (who may have been a ‘punk’ themselves, lol!) in the 2 man Team.

Then we had arquebus’s with a ‘S’-shaped serpentine lever on the side, hung with a longer lever arm to the bottom, so by sheer gravity it pulled the match away from the touch hole, where the shooter would aim & raise the bottom portion of the ‘S’ to drop the tinder/match to the TH to fire.

I’m completing one of those now & will post pictures when done.

Sir;
How goes the build?
Hector

 

[hectorintca]

Dear Granth. If its the matchlock I show with the inlett shield .(My own notion but based on the original Behaime gun now in the Hermitage Museum St Petersburg .They where a family of German merchants ) ''The large button pushes a rod through the stock against light pressure of a spring that in turn pulls out the nose of the scear you can just see shineing as it retains the dog head or probably better called a 'Serpentine' . Whilst authenic it is a regal P in the rectum to get used too .Hence all the bone studs to feel your way to a better hold .
Probably easy for a Saxaphone player but I can only sing of key sea shanties & that dosnt help. .Basically you can't get much lower teck so go for it . I fitted the 40 cal smooth but added a 40 ca rifled brl its the smooth bored one that has the dragon muzzle . (Very important to have dragons ) least they must have thought so. And its just files and a bit of chisleing .
Regards Rudyard

Sir Rudyard;
I am relatively new to Muzzleloading and am fascinated by the matchlock. I did not realize there were so many different styles, era's and geographic models to choose from. However, I am happy to read you built one with a rifled barrel. I have not commented earlier, because I thought it would be considered blasphemy to build one with a smaller rifled caliber to use in muzzleloader shoots.
I have a lot to learn and my inletting skills still suck, not to mention my measuring abilities. However, my goal is to purchase, build or restore one.
Thank you for sharing your expertise.
Stay alert, stay safe,
Hector

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Hector Getting one to restore might be a long wait but makeing on thats up to you Ive just finnished an early sort for TobJohn following the Behaim gun snap matchlock . .But there many variations you can go with . There near all different nothing factory about any of them & no paint by numbers CNC offerings But don't let that stop you .While rifleing was rare Ive made them often with a smooth & a rifled Option same stock . it all depends on what particular period you choose . Ime pleased you find M locks of interest . Saves a lot on flint & copper cap bills that appeals to my ingrained thrifty Yorkshire nature ! .Your on the right thread thats for sure . Pukka is a positive Mystroe & ime not too bad . I would suggest pickup a barrel oct smooth & about 30" maybe 13/16'oct and 45 or better yet 40 cal any wood you can get needn't be fancy & have at it per your descriptions . nobody can say " Oh they didnt do that" as they seem to do every sort of style as grabbed their fancy .. Embrace the' New way backwards ' as it where .
Regards Rudyard the incorrigible

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rudyard sums it up well Hector!
....get a barrel and have at it! some scrap metal will do for all the parts you need, and when it is finished you did it yourself!

 

[hectorintca]

Rudyard sums it up well Hector!
....get a barrel and have at it! some scrap metal will do for all the parts you need, and when it is finished you did it yourself!

Sir;
You have a good point. However, I still need detailed plans for a lock and trigger mechanism.
Best wishes
Hector

 

[Pukka Bundook]

If you look at the Viking Sword Forum Hector, there are literally hundreds of detailed photos of originals.
That's all I ever used, no real measuring except one that had a lock only a half inch wide. That one took some figuring to get the guts to fit!

Here is one for a start Hector, but any posts started by Michael, (Matchlock) will have more pictures than you will see anywhere else.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7542&highlight=tinderlock
Best,
R.

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Hector . I am pretty sure niether of us have been Knighted we are just plain plebs , Pukka gives you good advise much depends on what time period and national style you fancy or feel need for I allways favoured the Venician sort fits in the Tudor time frame ,And simply because it gives a 'Normal shoulder stock & a trigger where you expect it & sights where you are used to , There is a Video out shewing just such a gun is being shot . It's one of my make & Pukka shoots an Indian original for comparison . I call them the' Mary Rose' type since such styles (All vary ) where recovered in recent times from her when she sank in 1545 or thereabouts . That region produce thousands Henry the Eigth bought or wanted to buy thousands .They where the AKs of their age but all varied .Three at least are preserved in the Tower or Leeds RA as it is now . But that all up to your fancy you might go Indian Sub continent far east & anywhere in between,
Regards Rudyard

 

[toot]

it is a beauty.

 

[BillinOregon]

Blast this matchlock business. I cannot put it out of my mind ...

 

[TobJohn]

Here are a couple artistic examples of matchlocks that could be left side locks for right handed shooting, or the artist's own invention

View attachment 195557View attachment 195558View attachment 195559

I forgot I posted these. I have now seen images of a left hand barrel and lock in this general style (more specifically, the kind Flint has that started this thread), so that is solid evidence that left handed landsknecht arquebuses existed. Unfortunately, the images are in someone's private collection, so I am unable to publicly share them.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Tob,
You are very likely correct, but we have to be aware of the fact that photos were often made as slides, so were reversible.
I have seen the same photo of a gent with a greyhound being slipped, in two different books, and they are opposite facing.

Best,
Meself.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Bill,
LOL!!!

 

[TobJohn]

Tob,
You are very likely correct, but we have to be aware of the fact that photos were often made as slides, so were reversible.
I have seen the same photo of a gent with a greyhound being slipped, in two different books, and they are opposite facing.

Best,
Meself.

Yes, very true. The gun is in Armin Koenig’s collection and originally from Michael Tromner’s. The former sent the image when I asked him about the existence of arquebuses with left hand locks. In this case, I am confident to its accuracy.

 

[TobJohn]

My research white whale of the past couple of months is finding a convincing explanation of what type of arquebus was used at Cerignola in 1503.

Thanks to an article I just posted in another thread, I think I am starting to close in on the answer.

This painting is from 1508:

Which has a very similar arquebus to ones shown in Maximillian's armory, which I have seen several dates, ranging from 1500-1515, with one museum placing it at 1502:

Finally, they have a close resemblance to the arquebus in the Hermitage, which I initially did not trust the dating for, but it seems that this type of button arquebus was actually from the first decade of the 1500s and therefore could have been used at Cerignola.

https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/15.+weapons,+armor/662705

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Now I always surmised that the progression of "initiating the firing". i.e., via some form of trigger, went from:

• Hand-operated serpentine, to
• Button snaplock (like immediately shown above by TobJohn), to
• Lever/tiller arm operated serpentine, to
• A trigger as we now know it

But a recent book and a post by the late Michael Tromler state that the 'lever or tiller' matchlocks actually pre-dated the 'button' snaplocks.

So I guess the real ignition 'triggering' progression was from that of a manually-moved serpentine to a spring-powered serpentine. Sound reasonable?

 

[TobJohn]

Now I always surmised that the progression of "initiating the firing". i.e., via some form of trigger, went from:

• Hand-operated serpentine, to
• Button snaplock (like immediately shown above by TobJohn), to
• Lever/tiller arm operated serpentine, to
• A trigger as we now know it

But a recent book and a post by the late Michael Tromler state that the 'lever or tiller' matchlocks actually pre-dated the 'button' snaplocks.

So I guess the real ignition 'triggering' progression was from that of a manually-moved serpentine to a spring-powered serpentine. Sound reasonable?

He had an example of a tiller handgonne with a sprung lever, that was dated to 1411:
Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - Dating Earliest Barrels: the Importance of the Position of the Touch Hole
The lever makes sense as the earliest system, but weirdly, I have not found any surviving original arquebuses with just a lever, only handgonnes.

I think this book had some examples of incomplete wall pieces that could be simple lever systems:
Medieval Handgonnes (Weapon) by Sean McLachlan (10-Oct-2010) Paperback: Amazon.com: Books

The gun on the left is the closest evidence I can find (1470s), but it could actually be a number of things (decoration, hook, snapping lock):