English Trade Knives

[pichou]

Since there is so much junk on the market, I thought maybe somebody might enjoy seeing the real deal, and a authentic reproduction.

These knives have a V cross section, not a beveled edge. They are half tang, and usually have 3 pins, of about 3/32" diameter. The early Brit knives almost always have the pins low on the tang, in a straight line. Low on the tang, but centered on the handle, so the handles were wider than the tang, on the lower edge.

French knives seem to always show the width of the stock used, in the middle of the blade.

Early Brit knives (1760-1800) are usually shaped like a bent wedge. You can't see the width of the stock used.

The handle on the repro is based on a +L knife in the Minnesota Historical Society. The diagonal front edge matches the corrosion line on the original.

 

[RickD]

Very interesting..How did you come across an original

 

Pichou travels all over (in his Time Machine) :grin:

 

[pichou]

You had to ask that didn't you? :haha:

Short answer is it belongs to a friend.

Long answer is a touchy subject. Just about any day you can find these on ebay. They are being sold by treasure hunters who are potentially looting historic archeological sites. Indiscriminately digging that stuff up is not good history or archeology, but a way to turn a fast buck. But those ebay diggers/looters are being watched by authorities, or so I am told. There are only a few, and they find and sell way too much stuff to be occasional surface finds.

Sometimes these things show up in old collections, with little or no history, except the general region they were found. This is more of a grey area than newly dug stuff. They get sold off at estate sales and places like that.

My buddie's knife is in the second category, and he still is uncomfortable owning a "Native artifact." That's a good attitude, IMHO. Of course it's a trade artifact, not Native or religeous or anything like that, but still... :hmm:

 

[crockett]

Excellent Pichou: the real deal indeed. You didn't mention the handle material which looks like rosewood or some other red colored wood like camwood. From my research the "red Handled" knives were made from reddish colored wood, not dyed. Some cheaply made dags had red stained handles but the English trade knives labeled "red handled" appear to be of this reddish wood. Logwood is also mentioned in some accounts.
It would be great if really pc replicas were available.

 

[Elnathan]

These knives have a V cross section, not a beveled edge.

Is that a straight V or more on an appleseed edge?

Early Brit knives (1760-1800) are usually shaped like a bent wedge. You can't see the width of the stock used.

I suspect they were forged from a bar, in which case I imagine the original bar was tapered before being flattened.

 

[pichou]

Camwood, Bar wood... etc. The handle is padauk, which is related to red sandalwood. Those two pretty much cover the cam/bar wood used in the late 18th early 19th centuries. Rosewood seems to me to be more of a post 1850 thing, and very common on tableware of that vintage or later.

I have also seen reference to HBC scalpers with yew handles. I think that might have been the Brit answer to continental use of boxwood.

As far as red dyed and especially red painted... waaaaaaay over represented. IIRC the red painted is one specimen. And given the Yankee and Native propensity for painting things barn red, I am willing to go on a limb and say that was a aftermarket modification.

Blade cross sections are pretty much a straight V.

 

[Elnathan]

Thanks, Pichou. I have been thinking about making a replica of a similar knife, and that is one thing I could not have anticipated from pictures.

 

[pichou]

Well, that's one good thing those ebay knives are good for... if they have a ruler in the pic, and take it from the right angle, they make great HC/PC patterns. Collect the pics and not the new dug artifacts! :thumbsup:

 

[pichou]

Not sure why this got moved, since it is about making accurate repros. And I made the knife.

 

[tx-hunter]

what would the proper pin material be? Iron?

 

[Claude Mathis]

Not sure why this got moved, since it is about making accurate repros. And I made the knife.

Two reasons.

1. I may have overlooked it, but I didn't see anything in the original post that said you made the knife. One of the criteria for the Craftsman section is the details of "crafting" the item being posted. I did see, "a authentic reproduction".

2. The post did contain a lot of dates and information about the shape and history of that style, but nothing about actually "making" it. That would lead one to believe the post was meant to explain the history of the trade knife, not how to make one.

 

[crockett]

Pichou: An 1820 invoice of the NW Co. lists barwood. The Carl P. Russell book states that a G-Crown-R/FURNIS scalper (1830 or earlier, later scalpers stamped H. Cutler- Furnis'son-in-law) recovered from around the Hoback River was analyzed by the US Dept of Agriculture and found to be Rosewood.
Do you remember the source of the yew handle?
And, on the tang, does this tang taper to the back edge? It was my impression these tangs did taper however fitting them into a sawn kerf in a handle would be more difficult unless just hammered down from top. I made a scalper similar to yours but I just left the tang flat, not tapered.
And...you did a nice job on the scalper.
TX Hunter- you can use mild steel bar or 6d nails, etc. These materials however are a little difficult to peen. If you try to peen hammer the ends in many instances you'll bend the material instead of upsetting the pin's end. When the pin bends or bows it can split the wood handle apart. I therefore epoxy glue in the pins and file flush. If you look at the originals the pins look hammered to me. Iron is the original material and pure iron is soft but the mild steel is a different thing. Some folks used nickel welding rod which is a white metal however it not brown with age, etc.

My prior picture: http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj311/Red-Owl/2003_0101Image0003.jpg

If you look at the scalper (Bottom) you can see a Maltese Cross and F which I etched on the blade. I first put tape on the blade and penciled on the image, I then used an exacto knife to cut the lines around the mark and then pulled off the excess material, leaving tape on the blade consisting of the Cross/F. Next I painted the blade with bees wax and let it cool. I then cut through the beeswax around the mark and very carefully removed the tape pieces, exposing bare metal that is the Cross/F. I then put on a couple of drops of ferric acid (this is circuit board etch available at radio shack) and left it on about three or four hours, It actually ate down into the metal pretty good but the edges were shaggy so I then antiqued the blade to make everything look old.

 

[DNICK]

Thanks for the pictures there hard to find especialy with a ruler for scale,could you explain something for me? you said early Brit. blades were usualy shaped like a bent wedge, I guess I dont understand what you are saying cant quite picture it also how thick is the blade? Thanks Duane

 

I'm sure most of you have seen this posted here before, but here's some more original trade knives.
http://www.lanouvelle-france.com/beltknives.html
http://www.lanouvelle-france.com/Frenchtradeknives/morefrenchtradeknives.htm

 

[LRB]

Nice work Pichou!

 

[pichou]

OK, lots to reply to...

Claude, I knew what I was doing, but forgot to tell anyone else. :surrender:

Now, knives...

Pins: I use coat hanger. It's the same diameter as the typical original.

Tangs are tapered on the early knives. Later knives lose the curve, and the taper in the tang. They did more cutting and less forging/grinding.

Brit knives are the same thickness as Green River, or any skinner/butcher knife.

Now, observations and theories.

Here is my comparison of the typical French shape (I call this one "Doron" for the common maker) compared to several early Brit types:

Now, here's my theory: They used different stock, and cut them out differently. We know the Brit trade arrowheads were cut out in patterns. I think the wedge shape in Brit trade knives comes from cutting out to a pattern, instead of just rectangles of stock. The curve comes in during the forging, and the tang is extended by tapering. The French knives are almost always parallel in the middle. I think these were cut as simple rectangles and forged to shape.

Well, that's my idea anyway.

Last: Yew. The ref is a inventory in George Simpson's Journals.

Journal of occurrences in the Athabasca Department, by George Simpson, 1820 and 1821, and report
Author:
Simpson, George, Sir, 1786 or 7-1860 ; edited by E. E. Rich with a foreword by Lord Tweedsmuir and an introd. by Chester Martin.
Toronto : Champlain Society, 1938.

P. 154:
Knives, yew hdl, fine [total: 4 doz for Athabasca Dept., 1821-22]

P. 172:
List of goods requested from Isle àla Crosse for Athabasca 1820 30th Nov. 1820
Knives yew doz 3

 

[bajabuc]

As far as I know, and have researched, as of 2006, private land is just that, private. Archaeological excavation on private land, with the permission of the land owner, is not subject to any US laws prohibiting excavation in the US.
Federal Lands are so bound that the picking up of a rock is illegal...not just removal, but the moving by hand. If ebayers are selling artifacts dug or picked up on private land they may do so.

Canada is another story all together. Artifacts belong to the Crown no matter where they're found.

 

[Don B]

I was under the impression that trade knives (in the western Great Lakes, at least) were imported, distibuted and traded without handles, leaving the handle to be made and assembled near the end of the supply chain. References here to invoices seem to refute this. Or was there variation by French and English origins?

Don

 

Pichou,

You did a nice job with that knife. Nice to see simple stuff like this instead of the giant toad-stabber bowies and cut-down sword rifleman's knives. These were the general every day stuff. Very handy and usable for a variety of tasks beyond the slaying of dragons and the whittling of old growth timber. I myself prefer these knives in the event that I have to cross a creek where a giant toad stabber would surely sink me to the depths. :wink:

Sean