English vs French scalping knives

[Runewolf1973]

I am attempting to recreate an authentic English scalper based on the following drawings. Note that the tangs on the English are NOT tapered and are rather square on the corners. The French tangs on the other hand are tapered down to a paper thin edge and are very rounded at the end. So despite other reproductions I've seen of taper-tang English scalpers, I'm going to build mine as closely to these drawings as possible. Was there just a lot of variation/overlap with these scalping knives or something? Every time I think I've done something "historically correct", I end up finding new information that tells me something different. Anyways, I'll include a photo of the blank I'm working on of an English scalper that I am building and you can see how it compares to the drawing of the original here...

 

[Runewolf1973]

The blade on mine is just a tad too thick I think, so I'm going to thin that down a bit. Even though it started out at 3/32", it still seems a bit thick for an English scalper. Also the blade is a little too wide at 1-1/4" wide. I'm going to bring that closer to 1" or 1-1/8". Other than that, I think it's pretty historically accurate. What do you guys think?

 

[Brokennock]

Looking pretty good so far.
Hopefully @LRB will chime in.

 

[user 48679]

Since I handled the scalper I made with a stag crown, I only drilled a single hole in the tang for a glob of epoxy to secure it w/o pinning.

I was clueless, as to styles (French/British/etc) - so just made it they way I thought it should look ILO a factory shape.

 

[LRB]

There is a knife, I believe found near Ft. Ti, that is very much the same as you made, very close even in details. The found knife as I recall is larger and thicker than a common scalper.

 

[LRB]

There is a knife, I believe found near Ft. Ti, that is very much the same as you made, very close even in details. The found knife as I recall is larger and thicker than a common scalper.

If you have not seen this knife , I think I can find a pic. I remember a discussion on it on some forum some years ago. It had shoulders, and maybe a tang like a modern file. One of the only 18th c. knives found with an antler grip

I am attempting to recreate an authentic English scalper based on the following drawings. Note that the tangs on the English are NOT tapered and are rather square on the corners. The French tangs on the other hand are tapered down to a paper thin edge and are very rounded at the end. So despite other reproductions I've seen of taper-tang English scalpers, I'm going to build mine as closely to these drawings as possible. Was there just a lot of variation/overlap with these scalping knives or something? Every time I think I've done something "historically correct", I end up finding new information that tells me something different. Anyways, I'll include a photo of the blank I'm working on of an English scalper that I am building and you can see how it compares to the drawing of the original here...

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Some English tangs are tapered. Some are not. It is my thought, right or wrong, the ones not tapered are ones that are forge welded to the blade. I have pics of an original English that show a tapered tang. Kyle Willyard has dug relics with tapered tangs.

 

[LRB]

I am attempting to recreate an authentic English scalper based on the following drawings. Note that the tangs on the English are NOT tapered and are rather square on the corners. The French tangs on the other hand are tapered down to a paper thin edge and are very rounded at the end. So despite other reproductions I've seen of taper-tang English scalpers, I'm going to build mine as closely to these drawings as possible. Was there just a lot of variation/overlap with these scalping knives or something? Every time I think I've done something "historically correct", I end up finding new information that tells me something different. Anyways, I'll include a photo of the blank I'm working on of an English scalper that I am building and you can see how it compares to the drawing of the original here...

View attachment 102077View attachment 102078View attachment 102079View attachment 102081

English pin rivets are usually about 1/16" in diameter. French usually 1/8".

 

[Runewolf1973]

Well here's the finished knife. Done in 1084 high carbon steel with an edge quench for a really tough spine. The red handle is Chakte Kok from Mexico/Brazil. The pins are just a wee bit larger at around 3/32", but...what do you think? And yes, English knives also had tapered tangs. I remember you showing me that one pic before with the tapered tang. I muchly appreciate your expertise.

 

[Runewolf1973]

English pin rivets are usually about 1/16" in diameter. French usually 1/8".

Well here's the finished knife. Done in 1084 high carbon steel with an edge quench for a really tough spine. The red handle is Chakte Kok from Mexico/Brazil. The pins are just a wee bit larger at around 3/32", but...what do you think? And yes, English knives also had tapered tangs. I remember you showing me that one pic before with the tapered tang. I muchly appreciate your expertise on the matter.

 

[Bnewberry]

Nicely done!

 

[LRB]

Looks good. Great job, well done. A minor and really insignificant point, the makers mark should be on the left side. 1/16" pins would easily be 3/32" after peening, so that is no big deal. Looks fine.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Looks good. Great job, well done. A minor and really insignificant point, the makers mark should be on the left side. 1/16" pins would easily be 3/32" after peening, so that is no big deal. Looks fine.

Thanks. Yah, these pins are peened actually, I do that to all of my pins. I've always put my makers mark on the right side for some reason, but I guess it allows for if someone wanted to etch in a more historical looking mark on the left skde, they can still do that. Granted...etching the mark is probably not really historical either, but it can probably be made to emulate a hammer mark if etched really deeply.

 

[Red Owl]

Looks good to me. The originals were not all identical, the belly part of the blade could vary a little. As a general rule, these were "using" knives and most repro's have a thicker blade because no one wants to spend a lot on a blade that doesn't stand up to long use. A similar situation is found with moccasins, the moccasin wasn't something that lasted that long but today no one wants to spend a lot of time on something that will wear quickly.
I saw a TV show the other day on Amazon Indians. This guy had what was essentially a scalper and had it tucked under a belt, in the small of his back, no sheath, the edge was exposed.

 

[Brokennock]

Really nice knife @Runewolf1973

 

[LRB]

I used 3/32" steel, but tapered both directions from the division of the tang to the blade. Notice the original I posted would likely be about 3/32" before any tapers were formed. I also acid etched. I painted a wax "ground" where I wanted my mark, free hand scribed the mark into the ground, formed a dam around the scribed mark with modeling clay, then etched with a 70% nitric acid steel etch compound. Goes pretty deep if desired.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Looks good to me. The originals were not all identical, the belly part of the blade could vary a little. As a general rule, these were "using" knives and most repro's have a thicker blade because no one wants to spend a lot on a blade that doesn't stand up to long use. A similar situation is found with moccasins, the moccasin wasn't something that lasted that long but today no one wants to spend a lot of time on something that will wear quickly.
I saw a TV show the other day on Amazon Indians. This guy had what was essentially a scalper and had it tucked under a belt, in the small of his back, no sheath, the edge was exposed.

Yah, from what I understand, they would carry multiple pairs of moccasins and just fix them as needed Boots would wear out and once they were done they were pretty much done.

 

[JRBCo.]

Runewolf1973, Nice job on the knife. I tried to find out which side was the right side to put your makers mark. I never have gotten a definitive answer on that. It seems to be about an equal number on both sides. I put mine on the left side only because of how I pull it out of the forge and lay it on my anvil.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Runewolf1973, Nice job on the knife. I tried to find out which side was the right side to put your makers mark. I never have gotten a definitive answer on that. It seems to be about an equal number on both sides. I put mine on the left side only because of how I pull it out of the forge and lay it on my anvil.

I always put mine on the right side because as a right handed person, the right side of the knife is always facing away from my body while in use. So that means that anyone standing in front of me or watching me use the knife, or watching me pull it out of the sheath will see my mark, not just a blank blade.

 

[Erwan]

Scalping knives, scalping knives, immediately the big words... A Frenchman would never scalp someone, never, they are so gentle...
I have never heard anyone talking about this kind of jokes made on the head of others by French...... or just a little and accidentally.....
As for the Englishmen, I don't know.........

Good day to you all. ​

 

[JRBCo.]

Runewolf1973, You make a good point. I've put the makers mark on the left side for so long now and as I'm a creature of habit ; if I were to change now I probably would mess it up.