Favorite Hunting Gun, Load, Cal. Etc.??

[RussB]

Hey Stumpy!.....I have the "start" of a New Englander! I have had a Penn.Hunter w/1:66 twist for several years and I dearly love the balance / feel of it.I just wanted a faster twist with somewhat the same handling characteristics, So I decided a New Englander barrel would be the way to fly.
The fellow selling the barrel assured me it would interchange, quite nicely, with my Penn.Hunter and I could change it out on demand, Presto! A 1:48 twist!
Well....Bull manure! After he got my $75.00 I can't find hide nor hair of him, albeit I haven't searched all that hard.
I've always had plans of doing something with the barrel, but that has never come about. It was a brand new barrel and has been laying on the bench for about 2 / 3 years now. I do wipe it down once in a while, and wonder what I'm going to do with it.
Other than a very nice tomato stake, have ya got any thoughts / ideas on which way I should go to get some use out of it.
:yakyak:
I've looked occasionaly on eBay for something I could possibly use to turn it into a rifle, but it seems to me that many of the bidders on eBay are there without parental guideance....it get's kinda stupid!
Russ.... Lost, with barrel, on left corner of map.

Oh, about to forget...My favorite gun / load is the Penn.Hunter with PRB, over 90gr FFg, using LeHigh Valley lube (or spit)and .012 patch. This is "favorite-all round" load.
However, for Elk, I prefer the .58 or .54 with a big ugly, heavy conical, and lube from B-Wax, Lanolin, and rendered mutton.
Russ

 

[Keith]

1) Sell it on auctionarms. 2) Find a stock and lock and make a rifle.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Thanks for the offer. If I don't get somewhere in another month I'll get back to you.

I'm not sure how you measure a "compressed" patch?? Mine mic 0.018 at the point the clutch slips on my ancient Starrett. If I keep squeezing it goes as small as 0.005", but how do you know you're compressing a patch consistantly? That's what the clutch is for. I can "compress" the empty jaws of mine to -0.003" (or "22" on the barrel) Do I have to take that into account?

I haven't resorted to a liquid lube yet. I carry pre-patched balls in a block when hunting, and my target shooting is primarily just hunting practice. Liquid lubes are a nuisance in the woods. My Renegade responds well to wet patches using Lehigh Lube, but I haven't tried that in the New Englander. We'll probably get there, eventually.

 

Stumpy:
There is No way to get consistant results 'compressing' patch material with calipers or micrometer.
The variables are mostly how hard to you squeeze compared to what the other guy squeezes.
The only thing this 'test' tells you is that the patch material will compress. Some cloth, like heavy denim compresses less than others. Depends on tightness of the weave I guess.

 

[JerryToth]

Hi Stumpkiller;

The concept of "compressed patch thickness" comes from the Dutch Schultz Blackpowder Accuracy System. (For some reason, Dutch's system is rarely alluded to on this forum.)

Anyway, (and I'm sure that I can't do it justice in my poor attempts to explain it), the concept is that the patching is compressed between the lead of the ball and the barrel wall when you short start it. Building on that, the thickness of the material at it's uncompressed, or natural state doesn't matter.

You compress it with a micrometer past the point of the slip clutch. Now, it's obvious that you can compress it slightly, or with so much hand strength that you break your micrometer... So, you don't want to be stupid about it. I just compress it with a moderate amount of strength, using just my thumb and my trigger finger on the handle of the micrometer. It's obvious real fast that some materials that seem thick, compress way down.

Yes, you might have stronger fingers, and I might have weaker fingers, but just like everything else in our loved sport, you get a feel for it real quick. That's how you "know you're compressing a patch consistantly." It's not perfect, but it's a darn sight better than just reading Ox-Yoke's nominal thickness on the label! Man it does work!

Also, and be warned that it's not traditional, but the Dutch system recommends a "dry-lubed" patching that uses a water soluble oil for lube. The lubed patches feel dry, but they aren't. One of the amazing things that hard-headed me had the hardest time accepting was that more lube does not equal more accuracy.

I would recommend that you, and anyone for that matter invest $15 and buy the system from Dutch. It's far and away the best money I've ever spent on our sport. By the way, Dutch does offer a money back guarantee and very few have ever asked!

Again, let me know if you would want me to mail you some of my patching. From what I understand, T/C holds some pretty tight tolerances and the same patching might work for you. If it does, I'll tell you exactly how to make more.

Regards,

Jerry.

 

[JerryToth]

Hi Maxiball;

With all due respect, and certainly with no intent to insult, I beg to differ with you. In my experience, YES, there most certainly is a "way to get consistant results 'compressing' patch material with a micrometer.

How hard you tighten the micrometer is indeed a variable, but it is an easily controlled variable. Shucks, how hard you seat your ball on your powder (compressing the charge ever so slightly), is a variable. Yet, we all get a "feel" for this don't we?

Yes, you might have stronger fingers, and I might have weaker fingers, but just like everything else in our loved sport, you get a feel for it real quick. That's how you know you're compressing a patch consistantly. It's not perfect, but as I said in a post above, it's a darn sight better than just reading Ox-Yoke's nominal thickness on the label!

Understand that if my finger strength is weaker than your's, it doesn't matter. I'm not labeling this patching for retail sale at the risk of suit for false advertising. All I'm trying to do is to develop a consistency for myself. If I get a .007 patching and it loads too easily and shoots poorly, then I can find a material that I, with my hand strength, measures at .008. Likewise, .009, .010... until I find the patching that shoots the best groups.

Then I'll find the best patch lubricant ratio... but that's another topic!

Dutch has sold this system to thousands of persons. My experience is that it did help me understand the variables in blackpowder shooting. It does work.

I have no connection to Dutch Schoultz other than that of being a satisfied customer. Incidentally, he does offer a money-back guarantee... few have asked.

It boggles my mind that fellows will spend $15 or $20 for box after box of the latest super sabots, power belts, or whatever. Time and again, they try to make them work in a barrel that is twisted for the roundball. Yet these fellows just can't put together a full understanding of the variables in roundball shooting. Along comes a fellow who puts it all together for $15, just to cover his printing and mailing costs. Yet few avail themselves of his knowledge. Go figure, because I can't!

Month after month, I see the same fellows win the local buckskinner shoots by phenomenal margins. These guys bust the eggs at 50 yards at the egg shoots while other guys shoot until they run out of powder or ball! These fellows will have you believe their rifles are magic. They won't teach you a darn thing. They laugh at you. Again, along comes a fellow who puts it all together for $15. Well, it's the best $15 I ever spent this side of my marriage license!

Again, I don't intend to start any sort of argument or to insult you in any way. Please don't misunderstand me that way.

I'm sorry if I kinda got on a soapbox Maxiball. A lot of this post isn't directed at you... only the details on how to achieve consistent "compressed" readings with a micrometer. The rest of my ranting is to tell any of the young fellows who may happen across this post that there is a cheap way to shorten their "learning curve".

Sincerely,

Jerry.

 

[roundball]

...it's a darn sight better than just reading Ox-Yoke's nominal thickness on the label!

:hmm:
Jerry, I've noticed that you've made this statement on more than one occasion and I've tried hard to see any validity in it but I'm afraid that I can't.

I've been buying/using Oxyoke precut/prelubed patches for about 15 years, (TC brand too, probably made by Oxyoke).
They're always very high quality patches, evidently manufactured with high levels of quality control because they're so consistent from shot to shot, bag-to-bag, year to year, etc...the end result is measured by excellent accuracy at the target, they're readily available and reasonably priced.

Wondered if you could clarify if your statement is just a tongue-in-cheek comment due to your particular interest in buying and making your own patches, or if you're claiming that OxYoke patches are categorically inferior, or what?
Thanks

 

[Stumpkiller]

The point compression on a patch at the circunference of the ball where it touches the barrel is a lot more than I can do with my fingers and a micrometer. It mashes into the lead enough to leave the weave pattern from the patch in the metal (showing the LEAD is at least as compressable as the patch). I don't think compressablilty matters as long as the gas seal is efficient and it is consistant between individual patches. But then I'm no engineer. When I buy patching I get 6 yards of cotton tic at a time, so I only have to think about it every 10 years or so. ::

I'd heard about Dutch Schultz's system, but didn't know it was a dry lube. I visited his website and it reads like a diet pill or "enhancement cream" add from the back pages of a rag magazine. All hype and no information. My curiosity is piqued enough to finally submit and there seems to be general satisfaction from those who mention the system. I use greased patches in a loading block because I find them the least messy. Dry would be good. Do you need to wipe between shots?

I appreciate your offer, but I guess I'll send him the $15 and find out for myself. During "primative" season and for small game I limit myself to items that would have been on hand when the guns were originally in use - late 1700's for my flinters & early 1800's for my percussion. Hopefully a soluable vegetable oil like Murphys will substitute for the oil.

 

[JerryToth]

Hi Roundball;

I'm afraid that I may not have said exactly what I meant if I gave the impression that I think that the OxYokes are not a quality product. I'm certain they are well made and of consistant specs. I used them for years.

The specific validity of my statement is that the "compressed" thickness of any pre-lubed, pre-cut, manufactured patch has nothing to do with it's labelled nominal thickness.

I think that for each rifle, there is one most accurate patch thickness, one most accurate patch lubricity, and a narrow range of charge that will be the most accurate in THAT rifle. Slow twists seem to be more forgiving about the charge range, but that's for a different thread.

Now if you have a rifle that is most accurate with one of the standard manufactured patch thicknesses, and with the level of lubricity manufactured into the pre-lubed patches, you will do fine. Evidently, your rifle is just this way. Congratulations! You got way luckier than some fellows.

However, if a rifle will do it's best with something other than what one of the manufacturers of pre-lubed patches offers, the owner of that rifle will probably just conclude that his rifle is just a poor shooter. Some fellows are just content with 6" groups at 50 or 75 yards, figuring that it's the best these old rifles can do. Some guys just sell the rifle, or worse yet, give up on muzzleloading.

Again, I don't mean to insult the OxYoke folks or any of the quality manufacturers out there. And by all means, if your rifle shoots very well with them, don't fix what ain't broke!

Sorry if I didn't explain Dutch's concept very well, but I did qualify my original post with the statement that I wouldn't be able to explain it as well as him.

By the way, I still think it's sad that lots of fellows will buy box after box of all the new-fangled bullets, conicals, power belts and such, looking for the accuracy that is readily obtainable with the traditional, effective, cheap roundball. It's sad that so many fellows don't know how to find the accuracy available with RB by sorting through the variables of patch thickness, patch lubricity, charge range, and barrel consistency. Oh well, I'm trying too hard again so I'll just shut up!

Regards, and safe shooting,

Jerry.

 

[JerryToth]

Hi Stumpkiller;

The point isn't that you can compress the patch as much with your finger strength as you can compress it when short-starting the ball. The idea is that you are reading at least some kind of compressed thickness, not a "fluffed-up" thickness. (Sorry "fluffed-up" is my word!) Then you can compare the group size with YOUR rifle with progressively thicker patches until you find exactly the thicknesss that yields the best accuracy in YOUR rifle.

I suppose that you will be disappointed that the Dutch system does use a period incorrect water soluble oil as the lubricant. Sorry. It does disappoint me too if that helps any.

I don't know if the "compressibility" matters, but the "compressed thickness" certainly does in my rifles.

Yes, Dutch does recommend wiping between each and every shot. And you wipe exactly the same way. With exactly the same amount of cleaning solution on the wiping patch. And it does work. It makes sense the way he explains it.

As far as substituting a different lube, I suppose you could. The hard part is finding a way to do it consistently and with the same amount of lubricity. With some rifles, the best accuracy isn't with an extremely slippery patch.

Myself, I adapt the Dutch system by shooting from a perfectly clean barrel every shot. I simulate the first shot of the day while hunting while I'm practicing. Still, the several elements of Dutch's system that I do incorporate into my shooting help immensely.

Now the good news. If you're not satisfied, he will refund your money.

More good news. Once you read this packet of info over, it will make sense to you. You, being an experienced frontstuffer will already know most of it. Maybe you can glean a few tidbits of information that you can use. Then, you can give your packet to some frustrated young fellow, just like I did, and you can show him "the way" and hook him into our loved sport for life!

Regards and safe shooting.

Jerry.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Yes, Dutch does recommend wiping between each and every shot. And you wipe exactly the same way. With exactly the same amount of cleaning solution on the wiping patch. And it does work. It makes sense the way he explains it.

Hmmmmm. :hmm: I can see that the system will produce accuracy, but for my tastes all of that is too "delicate" for hunting conditions; and for me target practice is just preparation for hunting.

Dig out the jag, dig out the bottle, pull the ramrod and screw on the jag through the edge patch, moisten the patch, store the bottle in the pouch, wipe the bore, remove the jag, put the jag in the pouch, store a messy & wet patch somewhere (no littering). Then start loading? Phooey! I like to be able to get off three shots without removing my mittens. :haha: When it's 20

 

[RussB]

Gosh, Stumpy! Don't want much do ya?
Some folks say they can "shoot all day".....maybe they can.
Some folks say they only wipe every 5th, or 6th shot....maybe they do.
Some folks say they have to wipe after every shot...and that seems to be the predicament I'm in.
I don't like it. I don't like it even a little bit. But, what's a mother to do?
I haven't found a lube that will let me do anything else, and I've tried a bunch in my day. I can think of nothing, and I mean NOTHING, that would be more gratifying than a three to five shot string without having to wipe between shots, and without any change in POI.
Yep, Stumpy! I'm a lot like you...I don't want much either.
Russ

 

[roundball]

I for one have made the comment "shoot all day" in the context of discussing lubes, and the outstanding results I get from using Natural Lube 1000 products.

So to be very specific, I normally go to the range every Saturday morning as follows:

40 shots per trip
60grns Goex FFFg
Bore already lubed with NL1000
.018" pillow ticking patches prelubed with NL1000
(For heavy Goex FFg hunting loads, I also use NL1000 wonderwads to get more NL1000 in the bore)

I dry patch the bore once when I get there to remove excess NL1000 from the last cleaning;

I shoot 40 shots without wiping between shots;

Accuracy remains constant for all 40 shots;

I wipe the bore for the drive home, then thoroughly clean & heavily relube the bore with NL1000.

No question in my mind that this procedure (TC's) would let me "shoot all day" without wiping between shots...after 40 shots, the bore is no dirtier than after the first shot.

TC put over 1000 consecutive shots through their test rifle for their Natural Lube 1000 advertisement. Even if TC used highly controlled conditions to get the best possible test results, my experience has been that the average guy would still easily get more consecutive shots without wiping (hundreds?) than he'd ever actually shoot at one time.

So for me, cleaning with hot soapy water & lubing with NL1000, consecutive shooting without wiping and still maintaining accuracy is and always has been a fact...really makes a range trip enjoyable...a 'shooting' event instead of a 'cleaning' event.

I know Daniel didn't have NL1000, but I'm not a purist, so I use it.

:redthumb:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Natural Lube is what I'm trying to duplicate. I've used it for a couple years and it brought back a lot of fun in the sport that I was missing (one of the reasons I switched to smoothbore muskets many years ago but have now returned to rifles). It's still a tad messy, but it shoots well & long. I just want to cast my own balls, mix my own lube, march to my own drummer, etc.

Hey, that's what makes it a hobby. :haha:

I can go 20+ shots with my moose snot, but the accuracy falls off. My quest continues. "Come Sancho, we have giants to slay! On Rozinante!"

 

[roundball]

We need to find somebody that can run some NL1000 through a lab and find out what it's made of...they don't have the detailed ingredients on the label !!


Any forensics people here with access to a lab?
::

 

[RussB]

Okay roundball....I'm printing this off, and putting it in my "what ever" bag.
It seems that every time someone tells me how to do something different, and it doesn't work out for me, it's because I didn't ask the right questions the first time around. So hang with me on this.

Is this caliber specific? Twist regulated? Weather permitting? or Moon Phase related?
I'm not trying to be a smarty pants, just confirming, because I'm going to do it!.....just as you say, and as best as I can.

If your formula is a good one, and even gets me half of the 40 shots you mentioned, I will be most grateful.
And, you will have one convert to your system of doing things.
Your "formula" sounds vaguely familiar from the days when "bore seasoning" was in vogue. Although I was never astute enough to see much difference, I did go along with the crowd and still use it to some extent.

The only item you mentioned that I'm not sure I have is the .018 pre lubed patch. (I mean precisely .018)
OTOH, it's raining cats and dogs here, and it will most likely continue through tomorrow night. That's plenty of time to come up with the right stuff, in the right size.
Thanks for taking time to spell it out.
Russ

 

[roundball]

Okay roundball....I'm printing this off, and putting it in my "what ever" bag.
It seems that every time someone tells me how to do something different, and it doesn't work out for me, it's because I didn't ask the right questions the first time around. So hang with me on this.

Is this caliber specific? Twist regulated? Weather permitting? or Moon Phase related?
I'm not trying to be a smarty pants, just confirming, because I'm going to do it!.....just as you say, and as best as I can.

If your formula is a good one, and even gets me half of the 40 shots you mentioned, I will be most grateful.
And, you will have one convert to your system of doing things.
Your "formula" sounds vaguely familiar from the days when "bore seasoning" was in vogue. Although I was never astute enough to see much difference, I did go along with the crowd and still use it to some extent.

The only item you mentioned that I'm not sure I have is the .018 pre lubed patch. (I mean precisely .018)
OTOH, it's raining cats and dogs here, and it will most likely continue through tomorrow night. That's plenty of time to come up with the right stuff, in the right size.
Thanks for taking time to spell it out.
Russ

=====================================================
Here's as many specific's as I can think of:
I live, shoot or hunt in North Carolina year round, virtually every weekend, and am certain I'm doing so under every possible phase of the moon.

As soon as deer hunting season ends January 1st, I go to my Saturday routine and think I only missed two Saturdays this year up to Labor Day...significant because it includes temperatures from the winter 30's into the summer high 90's, and humidity from the dry wintertime lows to the high 90's in the hot July & August when the pan turns to soup within 30 seconds;

Both Percussions and flintlocks;

TC .45/.50/.54cal barrels, both 1:48" and 1:66" twists;
Green Mountain .58cal x 1:70" twist barrel;

Target loads:
.45cal = 50grns Goex FFFg
.50cal = 60grns Goex FFFg
.54cal = 70grns Goex FFFg
.58cal = 80grns Goex 2F

Hunting loads:
.45cal = 90grns Goex FFFg
.50cal = 90grns Goex FFFg
.54cal = 90grns Goex FFFg
.58cal = 100grns Goex 2F

The .018" is stamped on the package of T/C .018" precut / prelubed pillow ticking patches...never mic'ed them; (Probably made by OxYoke)

I add OxYoke prelubed wonder wads for larger charges of powder...using the next larger caliber size wads for a given caliber to ensure the tightest fit, so they're compressed right out into the grooves themselves...ie: 58cal wads in a .54; .54cal wads in a .50, .50cal wads in a .45, etc)

Bore seasoning:
I don't believe in it and don't attempt to employ it.

I clean AND scrub with a bore brush EVERY time using steaming hot soapy water, first letting the barrel heat up hot to the touch, then follow the cleaning/scrubbing with a clean steaming hot water rinse. I get the bore back to bare, raw metal each and every time...NO BUILDUP of ANY kind;

Patch dry it quickly to avoid flash rust, then let the residual heat in the barrel finish the job for a few minutes;

Then I literally use popcicle sticks (screwdriver tip, etc) to pack NL1000 into the grooves as far as I can reach, then using a patch also heavily coated with NL1000 I lube the bore...repeat 2-3 times until I'm satisfied every square inch of the bore is slathered with NL1000, and I assume the remaining warmth in the metal helps the lube flow & coat.

I also include using a rifle cleaning rod with a small .30cal brush on the end to push a lubed patch all the way down into the tapered cone of TC's patent breeches;

I Q-Tip NL1000 into the threaded nipple seat or vent liner seat, then NL1000 on the nipple or vent liner threads themselves, and snug them up finger tight.

How it works:
The purpose of NL1000 is to minimize fouling, and to keep what little fouling there is very soft.
When you load the next patched ball, the tight fitting patched ball pushes the very soft fouling down on top of the powder charge.
When that shot is fired, the fouling residue sitting on top of the powder charge is expelled, and the bore is then left with a fresh, single shot's worth of soft fouling.
Loading the next patched ball repeats the cycle...so the amount of fouling in the bore is only from the most recent shot.

This is what I've been doing for nearly 15 years...the only things I've changed in the past three years have been expanding into flintlocks and Goex, instead of percussions and Pyrodex...and was glad to find that NL1000 worked with actual blackpowder exactly like it did for Pyrodex.

 

Ironsights. If you read much of my rather mouthy posts you'll understand that there is NO WAY I'd take your kind and instructional posts as an insult.
Anyway, I THRIVE on controversy and seldom take offense by being stupid enough to read between the lines things that are not clearly there.
I appreciate your concern for my feeling however. It is rather touching. ::
I have Dutch's system. I'm sure it works. I also believe that bores seasoning works. Can't proove it, but that's what I think.
I'm sure the individual can compress patch material and get consistant results, and I'm just as sure that you and I will get consistantly different results with the same patch material. It really dosen't matter as long as the individual gets consistant results. I'm just as sure that if you use a tight patch you can't compress the material the same with a micrometer as you do by compressing with a ball starter.
It's all really a moot point. What ever works for you is perfect. :redthumb:

 

[RussB]

Okay roundball, Got my duckies all lined up and will be heading out in about an hour or so.
I feel like a darn kid with a new toy! I just may have learned me something here!
I have three of the calibers you mentioned, I don't presently own a .45 but that may be in the making. Anyway, I will be taking the .50, .54, and the .58. PLUS, the three large tool boxes I haul all this manure around in when going to the range.
Yesterday, in my running around, I was able to pick up two pounds of Goex, one pound each of FFg, and FFFg, both for $10.00! (Both still have a price tag of $9.95 on them) He said they are at least three, maybe four years old, the FFFg has been opened but not very much used from the can. I consider this a stroke of luck as Goex is running around $23 to $25 a pound, plus tax, here in my neck of the woods.....when you can find it!
Russ

 

RussB: Ya mean ya learnt sumpin? If an antique like you kin larn sumpin' thars's hope fer a antique like me!
NO FORTY-FIVE???????? :what: :what:
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-gads man! Fix 'at righawayquick !!!!!