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FFF OR FF?
- Thread starter Norseman
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Swampman said:
Sir: you are apparently missing the point of this discussion. Hopefully the newbies will get it. Although we talk of grains (weight) we really are throwing volume. The measures are calibrated (more or less) so that the 70 (say) grain mark VOLUME OF FFG on the tube throws about 70 gr WEIGHT OF FFG. This does equate to fg or fffg weights because of the aggregate packing laws mentioned above. Nor would it throw the same weight of wheaties or salt--because in those cases both the size-shape-orientation-packing parameters AND such compositional things as density vary from the original calibration--but the volume would be the same in the tube. This is basic science, not campfire myth.
Yep, and other things can change the weight of the powder in a given volume. Mositure can make the powder heavier, packing is a factor and grain size comes into play as well. It's still all based on weight but the stuff being put into the volume can weigh different depending on conditions.
In a perfect world a measure set to 70 grains would throw a 70 grain weight charge but we all know the world isn't perfect. The only reason that this doesn't matter as much is because Black Powder is a low yield propellent so if you're off a grain or two one way or the other it won't affect the pressure all that much. You can get away with it and still shoot good groups.
In a perfect world a measure set to 70 grains would throw a 70 grain weight charge but we all know the world isn't perfect. The only reason that this doesn't matter as much is because Black Powder is a low yield propellent so if you're off a grain or two one way or the other it won't affect the pressure all that much. You can get away with it and still shoot good groups.
Mike Roberts said:
Right on the mark...everything is keyed off of 2F as the benchmark...100grns volume of Goex 2F is designed to weigh 100grns weight.
Everything else away from that benchmark is different...ie: Goex 3F in that same measure would weigh differently.
Another example are the BP subs...a 100grn measure of Pyrodex RS only weighs about 72grns of actual weight but it's weight is irrelevant because the muzzleloading environment is built around volumetric measures, not weight mesasures.
And in the case of Pyrodex RS as a BP sub, it was designed & physically sized so that the amount of it that fits into a 100grn BP measure is intended to produce the equivalent energy that would come from real 2F BP measured in that same measure.
Richard Allen
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Y'all are placing too much importance on the the numbers on the sliding stem in adjustable powder measures. As long as you use the same measure each time and set it to the mark that you found provides the amount of powder that works best for the particular rifle your are shooting, it really doesn't matter whether the amount marked on the stem accurately reflects the amount of powder in the measure. The numbers on the stem are only reference marks. I concede they are somewhat standardized according to grains by volume.
Now suppose I filed off all the marks on the sliding stem of a brand new measure, and then filed a little mark every 1/16th. of an inch and a big mark at every 1/4", 1/2", 3/4" and inch mark from one end to the other. Then I used that measure and found the best load for "Old Squirrel Killer". Then in order to record how much powder she likes I counted the marks on the stem sticking out of the end of the measure and determined I will need to set the measure at seven big marks and three little ones each time for this particular rifle.
My measure with its large and small marks is just as accurate and the volume of powder measured is just as repeatable as a factory measure that is marked 40, 50, 60, 70, etc under the big marks and has four little marks between the big ones.
Richard/Ga.
Now suppose I filed off all the marks on the sliding stem of a brand new measure, and then filed a little mark every 1/16th. of an inch and a big mark at every 1/4", 1/2", 3/4" and inch mark from one end to the other. Then I used that measure and found the best load for "Old Squirrel Killer". Then in order to record how much powder she likes I counted the marks on the stem sticking out of the end of the measure and determined I will need to set the measure at seven big marks and three little ones each time for this particular rifle.
My measure with its large and small marks is just as accurate and the volume of powder measured is just as repeatable as a factory measure that is marked 40, 50, 60, 70, etc under the big marks and has four little marks between the big ones.
Richard/Ga.
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I believe I said as much in an earlier post above...we are not putting too much emphasis on the marks, just trying to get across a point. You are of course correct. The tube could be totally blank (no marks) for me, because when I reach the load I want, I make a antler charger of the same volume--it throws ~ same volume each time without adjustment. I don't really care if it is 68 gr or 73 grs. The only reason to even consider such things is if you want to estimate ballistics from charts of the load(s) you are using (and don't have a chronograph).
"everything is keyed off of 2F as the benchmark..."
A common misconception, that has been repeated so often that people believe it. 60 grains is 60 grains. 1f or 4f, it doesn't matter. A cup of beans and a cup of rice are still a cup of something. The extra pressure comes because the finer powder burns faster, not because there is more of it.
A common misconception, that has been repeated so often that people believe it. 60 grains is 60 grains. 1f or 4f, it doesn't matter. A cup of beans and a cup of rice are still a cup of something. The extra pressure comes because the finer powder burns faster, not because there is more of it.
Maestro
Moderator
You just don't get it... "grains" is a measure of WEIGHT - NOT VOLUME. (Sorry I'm shouting.)
You could have a cup of lead and a cup of feathers but they wouldn't weigh the same - arghh! If you "calibrate" a volume measure to approximate what 70 grains (WEIGHT!) of 2f might be - then, if you put 3f in it, the VOLUME may be the same but the WEIGHT WILL NOT BE!
You could have a cup of lead and a cup of feathers but they wouldn't weigh the same - arghh! If you "calibrate" a volume measure to approximate what 70 grains (WEIGHT!) of 2f might be - then, if you put 3f in it, the VOLUME may be the same but the WEIGHT WILL NOT BE!
DrTimboone
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If I fill a cup with ffg and another cup with fffg and then weigh the contents of each will they weigh the same??? If they don't weigh the same then is there more powder in the one that weighs the most 
:rotf: Is that why the cans of Goex ffg look like they have less powder in them than the cans of ffg?????
:rotf: Is that why the cans of Goex ffg look like they have less powder in them than the cans of ffg?????Blivetmaker
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Swampman. I think all Roundball is saying is that
if you pour 3f in a volumetric measure that is marked to throw a given volume of a more coarse
grained powder; 2f for instance, you'll end up with more actual propellant. It is not important what the marks represent.
To make life easier the marks are "keyed" to the volume of 2f that would tip out on a scale at ten grain increments (at least mine is).
You are absolutely right that 3f burns faster because of it's finer granulation.
The question is do you want to have more actual propellant than the VOLUME MEASURE says you're getting? A very heavy measured hunting load of 3f might be a surprise when 30 "extra" grains gets "added".
Of course 60 grains by weight is 60 grains. Feathers, lead, earwax; no difference.
I have never in my life weighed a charge. Instead
I use the expedient volume measure. If I fill to the 60 grain mark on my 2f measure using 3f I can expect to shoot high because there is simply more propellent being fired. :thumbsup:
if you pour 3f in a volumetric measure that is marked to throw a given volume of a more coarse
grained powder; 2f for instance, you'll end up with more actual propellant. It is not important what the marks represent.
To make life easier the marks are "keyed" to the volume of 2f that would tip out on a scale at ten grain increments (at least mine is).
You are absolutely right that 3f burns faster because of it's finer granulation.
The question is do you want to have more actual propellant than the VOLUME MEASURE says you're getting? A very heavy measured hunting load of 3f might be a surprise when 30 "extra" grains gets "added".
Of course 60 grains by weight is 60 grains. Feathers, lead, earwax; no difference.
I have never in my life weighed a charge. Instead
I use the expedient volume measure. If I fill to the 60 grain mark on my 2f measure using 3f I can expect to shoot high because there is simply more propellent being fired. :thumbsup:
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I'm shooting and priming 3F in my .50 flinter... so far the problems aren't with the powder :redface:
Scott Fleming
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I always use fffg in my "rock scrapers". This grade seems to burn quicker and obtains higher pressure. I always prime my pan with ffffg. This ignites super fast for minimal delay. Also, don't fill your pan all the way; leave a small gap in the primer charge between the pan and touch hole, this allows the flash to ignite the main charge without burning over to it like a fuse.
Modern barrels are very difficult to overload. I would start with 50 to 60 grains. Gradually adjust your charge till the rifle makes a good "crack" when firing (small sonic boom). This would be the optimal charge; any more will only make more smoke, waste powder and soften your shoulder. Keep your powder dry!
Pendragon
Modern barrels are very difficult to overload. I would start with 50 to 60 grains. Gradually adjust your charge till the rifle makes a good "crack" when firing (small sonic boom). This would be the optimal charge; any more will only make more smoke, waste powder and soften your shoulder. Keep your powder dry!
Pendragon
Richard Allen
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Roundball, my post wasn't directed toward you of any other individual.
The point I was trying to get across is that it doesn't matter whether the numbers on the stem of an adjustable powder measure indicate the actual weight of that volume of powder. The numbers and hashmarks are only reference marks that will enable the user to repeatedly a powder charge of the same volume provided that same measure is used each time.
For instance; the vast majority of top ranked centerfire benchrest competitors today use a Culver-type powder dump when loading their cartridges. The adjustments on those types of powder dumps are read as clicks, with quarter, half, and three-quarter click marks between the numbered marks. For example, they record the amount of powder they use in their record book as 37 and 1/2 clicks of IMR 4320. They are not concerned with the actual weight of the powder. They quit measuring their powder charges with scales many years ago and if dumping charges by volume is accurate enough for them it is accurate enough for anyone. For anyone not familiar with that dicipline, they shoot five shot groups at one and two hundred yards. The groups are measured with digital micrometers and more times than not the first, second, and third place groups at one hundred yard groups measure within a couple of thousandth of an inch of each other and usually only ten or twenty thousandth of an inch larger than the diameter of the bullet they are shooting.
That's just my opinion, for what it's worth.
Richard/Ga.
The point I was trying to get across is that it doesn't matter whether the numbers on the stem of an adjustable powder measure indicate the actual weight of that volume of powder. The numbers and hashmarks are only reference marks that will enable the user to repeatedly a powder charge of the same volume provided that same measure is used each time.
For instance; the vast majority of top ranked centerfire benchrest competitors today use a Culver-type powder dump when loading their cartridges. The adjustments on those types of powder dumps are read as clicks, with quarter, half, and three-quarter click marks between the numbered marks. For example, they record the amount of powder they use in their record book as 37 and 1/2 clicks of IMR 4320. They are not concerned with the actual weight of the powder. They quit measuring their powder charges with scales many years ago and if dumping charges by volume is accurate enough for them it is accurate enough for anyone. For anyone not familiar with that dicipline, they shoot five shot groups at one and two hundred yards. The groups are measured with digital micrometers and more times than not the first, second, and third place groups at one hundred yard groups measure within a couple of thousandth of an inch of each other and usually only ten or twenty thousandth of an inch larger than the diameter of the bullet they are shooting.
That's just my opinion, for what it's worth.
Richard/Ga.
I love these "chasing your tail" threads. There was a guy from[url] Shooters.com[/url] who forgot more about blackpowder than I could ever learn.
The bottom line is that the science of black powder is an extremely complicated blend of chemistry and physics. You can say that measures are generically calibrated to Ffg, but if you are an accuracy techy, take into consideration different brands, and lots within a given brand, the premise is rendered virtually meaningless. Then, if looking at substitutes (don't know why you'd want to), even moreso.
The fact is that a given measure of Ffg powder is different not only in physical grain size (appearance)from the same measure of Fffg of the same mfg, but also in its chemical makeup, and each will behave how it wants to and not the same, for a variety of reasons.
Regards, sse
The bottom line is that the science of black powder is an extremely complicated blend of chemistry and physics. You can say that measures are generically calibrated to Ffg, but if you are an accuracy techy, take into consideration different brands, and lots within a given brand, the premise is rendered virtually meaningless. Then, if looking at substitutes (don't know why you'd want to), even moreso.
The fact is that a given measure of Ffg powder is different not only in physical grain size (appearance)from the same measure of Fffg of the same mfg, but also in its chemical makeup, and each will behave how it wants to and not the same, for a variety of reasons.
Regards, sse
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In a .50 cal flintlock using FFF as the main charge (not priming), is there a possibility of the powder more easily sifting into the touch hole causing a "fuse affect", as compared to FF which has larger grain size that would tend to stop at the touch hole due to it's larger grain size? Would ignition (the main charge) be more certain with the FFF vice FF? I am getting a new custom flintlock in a couple of months and I have be exclusivly using a cap lock for a long while so this flint thing is new to me. All your inputs are fascinating by the way! :thumbsup:
Also, what would you consider a MAX charge (Just for safety reasons-not accuracy ect) fo a 7/8th inch diameter barrel in .50? I would like to have an idea for the max charge that can be safely used when I sight my gun in for hunting large game. For example the MAX load recommended in my old Lyman Great plains rifle in .54 (Round ball) from the manufacturer is 100 grains of FF, and 80 grains of FFF. I never exceded that! The Great Plains barrel is 15/16" diameter. I want to know what not to exceed I guess is what I am trying to say, as I work up loads for the new .50 X42 X 7/8.
Also, what would you consider a MAX charge (Just for safety reasons-not accuracy ect) fo a 7/8th inch diameter barrel in .50? I would like to have an idea for the max charge that can be safely used when I sight my gun in for hunting large game. For example the MAX load recommended in my old Lyman Great plains rifle in .54 (Round ball) from the manufacturer is 100 grains of FF, and 80 grains of FFF. I never exceded that! The Great Plains barrel is 15/16" diameter. I want to know what not to exceed I guess is what I am trying to say, as I work up loads for the new .50 X42 X 7/8.
paulvallandigham
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Norseman: You don't say what the rate of twist of the rifling is on the new gun, but with that diameter, most builders will suggest you only use PRB as projectiles, and avoid using conicals. Frankly, with the steels made today, the barrel is strong enough to take a lot of over loading in black powder, so I would not worry much about a " maximum " load. Start with 50 grains of FFg, and work up from there. If you are going to use FFFg powder, I would start with 45 grains and work up from there, raising the charge in 5 grain increments, until I find a load that is accurate. 60-70 grains seems to be where most people are for an accurate target load. and 80-100 grains for a hunting load.Your barrel can take more powder, but I don't seem much reason to do so. Use a chronograph, and don't waste your time guessing, as so many people on this forum seem to prefer to do. Always pick up your patches and inspect them, until you have the right combination of ball diameter, patch thickness, and lube so that the patches are not torn or burned. ( a brown char ring is okay. you just don't want to see holes in the patch, or torn patches.) You may find that using a lubricated felt wad, or card wad, or fiber wad, will protect the patching and ball frrom this kind of damage.
Don't worry about grain size plugging the touch hole. YOu should poke a hole in the main powder charge in the chamber by pushing a vent pick into the touch hold before priming the pan. this opens an area at the back of the charge to permit air, and access of the flame to many granules of powder, rather than one or two at the edge of the touch hole. Air draws flame, which is the real " secret" to fast, Consistent, ignition. don't compact the powder, either by pouring it down the barrel vertically( cant the gun when you pour in the powder) or by crushing the ball with your ramrod. ( You can do this with your percussion guns, and it may actually help make more consistent accuracy in those guns, but not in a flint gun.) Leave as much air in the powder charge as you can safely allow. The chronograph does not lie.
Don't worry about grain size plugging the touch hole. YOu should poke a hole in the main powder charge in the chamber by pushing a vent pick into the touch hold before priming the pan. this opens an area at the back of the charge to permit air, and access of the flame to many granules of powder, rather than one or two at the edge of the touch hole. Air draws flame, which is the real " secret" to fast, Consistent, ignition. don't compact the powder, either by pouring it down the barrel vertically( cant the gun when you pour in the powder) or by crushing the ball with your ramrod. ( You can do this with your percussion guns, and it may actually help make more consistent accuracy in those guns, but not in a flint gun.) Leave as much air in the powder charge as you can safely allow. The chronograph does not lie.
paulvallandigham
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I bought a Chrony through Sportsman's Guide catalog several years ago because it was inexpensive. It doesn't have all the features of the more expensive machines, but then I am not shooting over it every day, either. Its readings are very accurate. The only thing I didn't get was a shade of bright sunlight, which apparently can mess up the readings. A sheet of newspaper serves that purpose, and I understand the company now includes something for a cover with the machine. Its still the cheapest machine on the market, but works well. Competition Electronics also makes a good machine, but it costs more.
