FFFF?

[B P Arn]

^^^ ...(crickets chirping)...

 

[Britsmoothy]

^^^ ...(crickets chirping)...

Table weeds rolling past...

 

[B P Arn]

...in the far distance, a lonesome dog howls...

 

[Crow-Feather]

Topic has been ‘beat to death’ on this forum a few times. Folks like @Britsmoothy and I have taken it on the chin for expressing our viewpoint on using 4F. I continue to use it as I have for over 50 years in originals and reproductions without issue based on actual period powder charges and pre lawyering it up published loads. Do a bit of searching and you will find the threads. I am going to take pass for now on commenting any more on the topic to avoid the hair on fire crowd. In coming…..

Aw, those were shining times. God bless to you and yours.

 

[Britsmoothy]

 

[bigted]

Whose "pressure vessel tests"? Care to give a source? In our lifetime there have been a large number of pressure tests on black gunpowder. Many are wrong, some exceedingly so. I can send details if you are really interested.

Sending a PM

 

[Nameless Hunter]

I would love to see evidence of barrels bursting.

A search on YouTube will find a guy who tested the overloaded, bursting barrel theory - all the way to the barrel being almost full of black powder. IIRC, he eventually achieved barrel damage with the barrel packed full of powder, and the end plugged with two bullets and dirt.

 

[Britsmoothy]

A search on YouTube will find a guy who tested the overloaded, bursting barrel theory - all the way to the barrel being almost full of black powder. IIRC, he eventually achieved barrel damage with the barrel packed full of powder, and the end plugged with two bullets and dirt.

OK. But not from a normal charge og 4f?

 

[bigted]

Whose "pressure vessel tests"? Care to give a source? In our lifetime there have been a large number of pressure tests on black gunpowder. Many are wrong, some exceedingly so. I can send details if you are really interested.

Sent a PM

 

[Nameless Hunter]

OK. But not from a normal charge og 4f?

I don't recall the granulation of the powder used. I believe the thrust of the test was that it was virtually impossible to damage a barrel at any level of charge unless you managed to completely plug the end.
Edit: Found the video.

 

[JCKelly]

I would love to see evidence of barrels bursting.

Read Muzzle Blasts Oct, Nov & Dec 1985, three part series "The Strength of A Gun Barrel", by James Kelly, Michigan. If you don't have it to hand, send me an actual email address and I will happily send you a copy.
As far as "love to see", perhaps so, but I can tell you I was not at all happy to see the reddish-brown stuff smeared over the barrel pieces I got first. Nothing to do with powder granulation.

 

[JCKelly]

This .50 cal. rifle had been proofed w 250gr black powder and two patched round balls. Failure occurred with a load of 8o grains FFFg, 375 gr. Maxiball lubed with Crisco, Remington caps. Shooter had about 12 years experience, all but the last two with old rifles. Marked his RR so the ball would be loaded down on the powder, no gap. Hurt shooter badly.
Steel has very important properties beyond tensile strength. For any more details see 1985 Muzzle Blasts.

 

[deerstalkert]

I have some swamp land ............

 

[Musketeer]

4f is exactly the same as the other f's, but finer grained. As such, a 30 grain charge of 4f will be a bit denser than a 30 grain charge of 3f, which will be denser than a 30 grain charge of 2f, etc. Lyman's older edition loading handbook had charges listed for revolvers using 4f. Rather than one attempting to go for more power by using an equivalent charge of 4f, I think the smarter way to go would be to use a reduced charge of 4f that gives the same performance as a larger charge of 3f, thus saving you some powder and stretching each can of powder a bit further. Let's say you could reduce that 30 grain charge of 3f down to 25 grains when using 4f and get the same performance. That would mean the difference between 233 shots (3f) per lb of powder vs 280 shots (4f) per lb.

 

[flntlokr]

I would love to see evidence of barrels bursting.

Me too. I'm pretty sure the excess pressure would bleed out via the cylinder gap or out the side of the cylinder (which is somewhat thinner than the barrel wall). It maybe could result in a blown barrel with an obstruction, but I suspect not.

 

[JCKelly]

Why do you want more speed? Much better to try for more accuracy.

In the 19th century accuracy was very important with percussion rifles. For those who would like to know how they did it, I would recommend you get The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle, by Ned H. Roberts. His Uncle was a Sharpshooter with Berdan during our Civil War, and taught him a bit about shooting.
Page 82 "Rifles of 38 calibre and larger usually give the best accuracy with F. G. powder, while those of smaller bore do best with F. F. g. However, there are, of course, exceptions to this rule and we occasionally find muzzle-loaders of 40 to 45 calibre that require the F. F. g., powder to make their smallest groups."

 

[Stantheman86]

Why though? Using harder to find and more expensive 4f to get 50 more fps seems like extra steps.

I'm always curious why anyone tries to "get more power" out of 170+ year old technology. Get a Uberti Walker and use 60gr charges of 3f, that's about as much as a percussion revolver will give you. Is an extra 50-100fps using 4f really gonna matter?

I use 50 gr of 2f in my Walker and pretty sure I'd feel safe if a Black Bear came charging out of the woods at the gun club. Otherwise why are we looking for more power out of percussion revolvers?

Just use an "unmentionable " if you need "more power " for dangerous game or some such unless you're a Felon and you can't. Maybe get a Coleman camp Axe and a sledgehammer.

 

[ord sgt]

I would love to see evidence of barrels bursting.

I have seen a revolver that burst the barrel. But that was from a chamber that had no powder in it. The percussion cap had enough force to push the ball into the barrel. Another charged chamber was fired and the result was the barrel opened up like a banana. The man who fired the shots was unhurt but greatly surprised.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I have seen a revolver that burst the barrel. But that was from a chamber that had no powder in it. The percussion cap had enough force to push the ball into the barrel. Another charged chamber was fired and the result was the barrel opened up like a banana. The man who fired the shots was unhurt but greatly surprised.

But not 4f

 

[Sparkitoff]

The instructions said
“100 grains powder 228 grains, .53 ball patched”.
The new user trying the rifle for the first time figured go for a max load. He thought the powder charge was from 100 to 228 grains based on the comma. Put 225 grains of 4F from an open can he bought at flea market.
Rifle fired with excessive recoil and smoke. Someone got curious and intervened. Continued to shoot with 100 grain charge for remainder of session. Still using the 4F. Changed things up after some research, but the rifle and shooter survived that day.