First time shooting my flintlock-- Is it too Slow?

[Greebe]

So I had a percussion Hawken rifle and switched out the lock and barrel for a .54 cal flintlock barrel and lock. Did the work myself and got it all finished a few days back and got out to shoot it today.

When shooting it, it seems a little slow to me. I need to take a video to see how it really is, but I pull the trigger, hear it hit the frizzen and then a split second it fires. At 35 yards I was all over a pie plate, but 5 of 6 shots fired where on it. The first one I anticipated way too much and hit about a foot low.

So does it sound slow? This was my first time shooting a flintlock. I have spent a lot of time behind rifles, especially M4's when I was in the Army and earned my expert badge so I do not generally suck.

Perhaps I am used to rifles going bang as soon as the trigger is pulled. To me it seems that from the time the trigger is pulled till the time I hear the frizzen make its sound springing out, is slow, but after that it fires fairly quick afterwards.

I did feel like I was anticipating the shot. There was enough time from pulling the trigger till the rifle fired that I could tell I was flinching a bit. Definitively need to work on that.

Also I was just shooting a pretty light load of 60grs FFFg with a PRB and pillow ticking. Used FFFg as a priming charge as well. This load was very mellow in this rifle. The patched ball was pretty tight in the barrel getting almost too tight to get the last of 6 shots seated.

Just filled the pan about half full with the priming charge. Tried against the vent hole and away. couldn't tell any difference.

What do you guys think? Is it just that I am not used to a flintlock or is something off other than me? Do I need a heavier charge?

Thanks
Greebe

 

Are you picking the vent to make sure it's clear?

I can honestly say that 98% of the time there is zero noticeable lag in the flintlocks I shoot. The 2% of the time there is a noticeable lag is usually caused by a dull flint or something I did wrong before closing the frizzen.

 

[biliff]

Sounds slow to me. You shouldn't be able to perceive separate events during the firing sequence.

Whenever I get a slight delay like you describe it means my flint is dull and not throwing a lot of sparks into the pan.

 

[Greebe]

Well I didn't have a vent pick made up yet so I was using a small safety pin. :shocked2: Much smaller in diameter than the vent hole.

This is a Cabela's Hawken made by Investarms. Perhaps this is common with these? I wish I had something to base this rifle off of but I do not so it is hard for me to judge it.

 

[Greebe]

The flint was not super sharp, i.e. it has little chips out of it. It is throwing a bit of sparks, but again I have nothing to base the quantity of quality of sparks being generated. It fired each time. Maybe there is not enough sparks so it is slow to ignite the powder in the pan?

I did not hear or see the pan going off separate from the main charge.

The other thing I was wondering is if the lock is not set right. The flint is only striking the bottom half, no more. Do I need a longer flint? Is the cock not bent right?

Thanks,
Greebe

 

[Ranger1759]

I say give it time.....it will be a bit slower then a cap gun....and it being your first time with a flinter, that alone will cause some problems....flinching, eyes closing, anticipating the shot, are among a few things....let alone that big flash right next to your face! just give it time....

 

[Greebe]

Thanks. I was kind of wondering if it is me. 6 shots total for ever shooting a flintlock does not give me much experience, none really.

I checked my flint and it was pretty dull. I did the nail trick and knapped the flint to a nice sharp straight edge. Maybe that will help too.

I checked the vent hole and it is about a #54 or around .055". I have read that it should be closer to .625 or 1/16" for .54cal. Is that correct? Should I open up the hole to 1/16"?

Thanks,
Greebe

 

[Zonie]

Flintlocks are slower than percussion guns which are slower than modern guns.

I've probably got the numbers a bit off but AIR a good flintlock will fire in about .03 seconds.
A good percussion gun will fire in about .015 seconds and a modern target grade cartridge gun will fire in about .004 seconds.

In plain English that's 30 thousandths of a second for flint, 15 thousandths of a second for percussion and 4 thousandths of a second for modern cartridges.

Shooting these older types of guns means you have to plan on things taking longer making the "hold" or "follow thru" much more important.

Just get on target, squeeze the trigger and continue to hold on target while you let the gun do it's thing.

Once you've mastered this it will carry over into all of your shooting making you a much better shot with anything you choose.

 

[Trench]

Greebe, are you using actual black powder or a substitute? Just to be certain, only real black powder works reliably in a flinter due to it's lower ignition temperatures.

 

Greebe, are you using actual black powder or a substitute? Just to be certain, only real black powder works reliably in a flinter due to it's lower ignition temperatures.

Excellent point.
I bought a pound of Pyrodex when it first came on the market to try in a paper cartridge Sharps. After the first session I burned off the rest on the ground. I tend to forget they make anything but the real stuff.

 

[nchawkeye]

It should go off very quickly, I started with flinters in '77 and can say there is very little difference...

In addition to using real black powder and at least FFF in the pan...Where is the vent???? If low in the pan, it should be high, in the sunrise position...Or behind the heel of the frizzen when the frizzen is closed...

Also, what about the touch hole??? Is it counter bored from the inside??? It sounds like you are using the wrong powder or the touch hole is full of powder causing a fuse effect...

How quickly does the pan powder ignite??? Have you tried her with no powder in the barrel and just powder in the pan??? This will help narrow the problem down...

 

[Larry Pletcher]

When shooting flintlocks, "fast" seems to be a relative term. All of us have opinions about how fast a lock sounds or feels. The fact that you hear the frizzen makes us think your ignition can be improved. I'm not aware of this when I fire my lock.

One good place to start is to find out if the lock makes plenty of sparks, and whether the sparks are landing in the pan. Below is a photo of a lock that makes lots of sparks, and the sparks are landing where they should. You can get a pretty good idea by flashing the lock in a dark room. No powder in the pan - just look to look at the amount of sparks and where they are.


If your getting good spark production, I'm open the vent a little. Personally I like a vent that's .064 or .067. A #52 or #51 bit. (These bits are slightly larger than 1/16". Others here like larger sizes.) The main reason I like these sizes is that you can use a pipe cleaner if necessary to keep the vent clean. A clean vent is HUGE if you want fast ignition.

All of these things tend to contribute:
real BP in the barrel
real 4f priming powder in the pan
at least some priming close to barrel
a CLEAN vent
sharp flint -- lots of sparks landing in the pan

If you have a chance to attend a local blackpowder shoot, you could see how fast other flintlocks are.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Spikebuck]

http://www.redaviscompany.com/1121.html

There is a video of a flintlock in slow-mo at that link. This may give you an idea of flint position / angle relative to the frizzen, sparking, etc. Since it's slow, it won't show you actual speed, but it gives a good understanding of the total process that is happening.

If your flint is hitting only 1/2 way down, you can put an extra little piece of leather under your flint in the jaws (below the regular leather wrap) to raise it up a bit. Or you can try flipping it so the bevel is down, which will generally have it striking higher on the frizzen. About 2/3rds of the frizzen should be contacted during the strike.

Make a little wood flint and "pretend shoot" over and over to get used to the sound. It might help to minimize the anticipation.

 

[mr.flintlock]

As others have said, there should be no noticeable delay between the prime charge and main charge igniting. going to 4f for prime powder may speed things up a bit. the amount of powder in the pan as well as the way the powder sits in the pan can sometimes affect ignition speed. You can prime the pan on your unloaded rifle and watch it closely as you pull the trigger. If the prime ignites instantly then there is a delay between the time the prime ignites and ignition of the main charge. If this is the case, it can be any number of things or combinations of things that can cause the problem.

 

[Rifleman1776]

The flint was not super sharp, i.e. it has little chips out of it. It is throwing a bit of sparks, but again I have nothing to base the quantity of quality of sparks being generated. It fired each time. Maybe there is not enough sparks so it is slow to ignite the powder in the pan?

I did not hear or see the pan going off separate from the main charge.

The other thing I was wondering is if the lock is not set right. The flint is only striking the bottom half, no more. Do I need a longer flint? Is the cock not bent right?

Thanks,
Greebe

Even a faulty lock will give ignition if a spark, just one tiny one, reaches the powder. This is not the source of your apparent delay.
You mention using a vent pick. It is possible you are over priming. Shoving primer into the touch hole is not necessary. Try just lining the bottom of the pan with less powder than you are currently using.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

One thing the late Paul V. here had taught me was that if/when picking the vent, don't pick it TOO much!

In other words, even a 1/4" entry enough to form a chimney into the main charge is great, but I have - on occasion and as part of the continued learning experience - picked a vent so much that the motions moved the main charge away from the vent.

I think that, combined with a smaller priming charge, can lead to mis-fires. In the end you will find that each arm is akin to a woman ... each has their own personality as to "what she likes" ... and you'll do well to learn and apply it FAST!

Have fun and tight groups!

 

[Greebe]

Thanks. Driving back from the lease I was shooting at I was thinking about how mastering a flintlock would definitely make you a better marksman with all weapons. I am going to go out and shoot it again this weekend.

 

[Greebe]

Yes after much searching I found a little ma and pap shop about an hour away that still carries it. I bought a pound of Goex FFFg.

 

[Greebe]

The height of the vent hole is centered with the flats of the pan. The hole is not centered left to right. It is more towards the back but still well inside the pan.

It has a screw in vent liner which is drilled out larger and then has the .055" vent hole. It is not a tapered profile on the inside though.

I have not tried just firing with a charge in the pan but not in the barrel. I can try that next time I am out.

Thanks
Greebe

 

[Greebe]

Thanks for the reply and picture. My lock is definitely not producing sparks like that. My flint was pretty dull, so I knapped it sharp again. The flint came with the lock and seems to be of poor quality. It looks like a blond colored translucent material like you would see in a geode. It is a manufactured one that is pretty soft. In fact I Was able to flatten it with sandpaper.

Maybe I need to find a better flint and drill out the vent hole to 1/16? Do you think these things would be the best start?

Thanks,
Greebe