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I never new that. I thought it was around the civil war time thye invented rifled barrels. Why the hell did we have smoothbores?

I take it there is no such thing as a longsmoothrifle.
 
Of course there were long barreled smoothrifles. Just what do you consider " Long "?

As for why the smoothbore muskets? It had to do with battlefield tactics, which had not changed in 1000 years, from the days of pikes, swords, and bows and arrows. The Guns merely replaced the pike and bow and arrow. Mass ranks and files of men were still the order of the day. The military wanted volley fire at massed enemy troops who faced each other at no more than 50 yards. There is some argument that the reason there were no rear sights provided on the Brown Bess or Charlyville muskets was because the officers did not want to allow the men of lower rank( and class) to be able to take "Aim " at the enemy officers, because that was considered wrong. Without officers to control the men, any battle could deteriorate into chaos, and mass slaughter of the losing party, along with pillaging, Rape and murder of the townspeople nearby the battle fields. There were all kinds of " Rules of warfare" agreed upon by the aristocracies of Europe, to help civilize warfare. An inaccurate( relatively speaking)musket, without a rear sight, provided with undersized ball and modest powder charges tied into a paper or cloth cartridge, would allow repeated reloading of the musket during a battle, while volleys of musketballs would be sent towards the enemy lines, without risking officers who would be mounted on horseback well behind the battleline, trying to see what was happening through or over the clouds of smoke.

So, the reason that smoothbore muskets lasted as the main battle arm of the day for so long after the first rifled barrels were invented is a choice to conform the guns to " approved " battlefield tactics", rather than change tactics of war to fit the new arms. The European armies were simply not prepared to face unconventional warfare, and it showed in battles during the French and Indian War, here in N. America, and finally during the American Revolution. By 1815, when the Battle of New Orleans was fought at the end of the War of 1812, between Great Britain and the USA, the continued adherence to battlefield tactics and the smoothbore musket resulted in the death of so many British officers on the battle field, struck down by both cannonfire, and rifle fire, that the military forces in Europe had to begin to consider changing firearms, and adapting new battle tactics to make use of rifles. The transition to rifles, and new tactics evolved as the flintlock was replaced by the Percussion action, but open field tactics were really not retired by British officers until after the Crimean War.

In America, our officers were also being taught the battle line tactics, and volley fire was still the name of the game through the Mexican War of 1845-46, and through the early years of the Civil war. Not until Breechloading Rifles using powerful cartridges did we get the men down into trenches, or separate them on a battlefield to prevent volley fire from the enemy from killing so many soldiers at once.

The Little Big Horn Battlefield evidence( 1876) indicates that, while overwhelmed by vastly superior Native American forces, Custer's forces were formed in " skirmish " lines, with the men spaced 5 yards apart, to prevent deaths from volley fire. General Custer had earned his reputation as an agressive cavalry officer during the Civil War, but as one of the youngest men to every have the rank of General, he also believed in using better field tactics, that conserved his forces. He did so at the Bighorn, and his command probably survived much longer because of his tactics. The fact that the bodies, and evidence of battle were spread over a considerable distance, and not all clustered at the top of " Last Stand " hill indicates that this is true, contrary to some of the famous oil paintings of his " Last Stand ".

The Springfield Trapdoor single shot rifle, which was adopted in 1873 as the first cartridge rifle for the U.S. Armed forces, still had a full length stock, and a substantial bayonet, just like the Brown Bess, and Charlyville muskets. The old officers of the military still believed in the tactics of their youth, and believed that a charge of men armed with bayonets was still the best way to break up an enemy battle line. Repeating rifles were available by 1873, as were accurate rifles with scope sights, used effectively by "snipers" on both sides of the American Civil War. But, the Generals didn't want to introduce such "tactics " into general warfare because, like their predeceasors, they didn't want officers being singled out and killed on the battlefields. When smokeless powder became available in the 1890s, and was being used by European powers, including Spain, AMericans were forced to adopt a repeating arm that used smokeless powder, too. The .30-40 Krag Rifle replaced the Springfield, finally, but it too was provided with a substantial bayonet. You don't see the military getting away from the idea of bayonet charges until Vietnam( 1961-1975), and only recent rifles have been used that have no provision for a bayonet on them at all.

If you think the adoption of a rifled barrel and rear sights took a long time, the adoption of scope sights on battle field rifles has taken more than 150 years. The Scope sight showed up in the 1850s, and was well known during the 1860s. Even in WWI, only snipers were provided with rifles that had scope sights. The same with WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. In the Gulf War, night scopes, much more powerful, and reduced in size from what was first employed in Vietnam, became used by small units. During the Afghanistan, and Iraq wars, for the first time, infantry rifles are being provided with all kinds of optical sights, from ordinary rifle scopes, nite sights, laser sights, and C-More "red dot " aiming sights. When you occasionally see pictures of soldiers in combat on TV, keep an eye on the rifles they carry. Barrel lengths vary considerably. And the sights they have also vary from man to man. You see very few of the Vietnam era style iron sighted rifles being used today.
 
The British Army was slow to adopt ML rifles because of the fouling problem, they wanted breech loaders. The Baker rifle only got accepted because of an upsurge in foreign militias in the UK made up of refugees fleeing Napoleon. They wanted the Jaeger rifles they were used to.

The Inspector of small arms, George Lovell, eventually sorted it all out but met huge resistance from the Duke of Wellington who had become old and cantankerous. Wellington was resting on his laurels from Waterloo, he had a thing about volley fire and simply preferred smooth bore muskets.

Lovell did wonderful thing but was treated like something the cat had dragged in. He came to a rather tragic end.
 
I allways thought the Baker rifle came in because of the Americans and the units using them were the first to be dressed in green to assist in their concealment. I also heard the saying "use your loaf" came from sticking their hats on their loaf of bread ration and exposing it to the enemy to draw their fire and expose their position etc hence now meaning think!

Britsmoothy
 
Hi volatpluvia,

the first rifles of the Schuetzengilden were ignited by matchlocks in most cases. The wheellock wasn't very common. Even when it was invented it was only affordable for rich citizens or aristocrats and used for hunting rifles.
Also the armies didn't use the wheeellock very much, they stayed with the matchlock. A great exception was the swedish army in the 30 year war, they used the wheeellock in a very high number, especially the cavalry had wheellock pistols and carbines.

Regards

Kirrmeister
 
The Custer segment of the battle probably lasted half an hour. Discipline quickly broke down and the men fought in small groups that were soon wiped out. Some soldiers dropped their weapons and were killed where they stood and others tried to escape. Benteen described the fight as a general rout, not as an example of a well organized and led fight.
Custer split his force without first gaining proper intelligence in regard to his foe. He was warned that it was a large village--one scout said it was the largest he had ever seen--but he disregarded this information. He did not wait for re-enforcements but instead attacked. In fact, in military terms, it would be difficult to think of what he did right on this occasion. He was known to have taken high casualties during the Civil War due to his often rash actions, so this battle is perhaps just another example of this behavior, only this time his luck ran out. Thanks to his wife's diligence in the publicity arena and the government's desire to use Custer as an excuse to finally crush the Indians he is remembered as a tragic hero and not as the self loving egoist that is perhaps a more apt personna. Recent archaeological work at the battle site has shown that Custer's Last Stand was in fact a complete fiasco from a military point of view. It's a pity that the man who botched things so badly is remembered so fondly by so many, and the poor brave young men who paid the price for his incompetence lie unknown in their graves, for they are the real heroes.

One of the major reasons for staying with a single shot rifle when breech loaders came in was economics. By converting thousands of Springfield rifle-muskets to breech loaders using the Allin system a great deal of money was saved. Another reason was that senior officers feared that if troops were armed with repeaters they would waste too much ammunition. The Krag-Jorgensen had a magazine cut-off so that it could be used as a single shot keeping the magazine in reserve. Old ideas often die hard and young soldiers often die because of them.

To get back on topic, I recall reading that by the early 16th century they were holding separate contests for smoothbore and rifled guns. :v
 
Mind clarifying " WHO " was holding separate shooting contests for rifles and smoothbores?

I agree with your critical assessment of Col. Custer at the Big Horn. His men are the heros, not him. His widow is the reason that so much nonsense has been told about Custer. And, no doubt that he was also very reckless with his men's lives during the Civil War.

He was doing his version of " shock and awe", at the time, and while he lost men on each such charge, he generally broke the ranks of the Southern forces and reshaped the battle lines. Gen. Sheridan was quite proud of Custer. And Sherman considered Custer one of the best fighting officers he had ever seen.

At least in the Civil War action, Custer was known to recklessly risk his own life by leading his charges, rather than remain in the background, as was expected of other Union officers. I just think he had more luck than any one man should expect, and he let it go to his head. For that, he died, and got a lot of good men killed with him.

Benteen was fortunate that Custer did split his command, because its the only reason Benteen and his men survived. The Scouts Custer would not listen to were Pawnee Indians, for whom he held the usual White man's disdain. The Pawnee were also famous for picking their fights, and battle grounds carefully, as their tribe was not as numerous as the Sioux, or Cheyenne, or Blackfeet. Custer took their caution as cowardice, while they thought him arrogant, and stupid. History proved them right. They were fairly insulted by Custer for not believing their reports of the largest encampment they had ever seen.

An encampment that large could not be broken down and moved any distance within a few hours, or even a day. There was more than enough time for Custer to wait the arrival of the other army under Gen. Terry, while continuing to scout the camp, get an accurate count of the number of lodges, horses, and warriors, and get better intelligence about the lay of the land so that a battle plan could be quickly laid out to Gen. Terry on his arrival.

I have read historical accounts from men who fought with Custer during the Civil War, and the general feeling among his troops was that he was reckless, and follhardy, and put them needlessly at risk many times. But, he was a winner, when so many officers just could not to decide when and where to fight. They stayed with him for that reason.

Many compare Gen. Patton to Custer for having the same reckless disregard for the safety of the men in his campaign. But, both men were extremely successful battlefield commanders, and for the same reasons.
 
In Peterson's Treasury of the Gun, on page 135, he talks about the first surviving record of a prize shooting match for arquebuses taking place in 1426 and that the Swiss held an all gun match in 1472 and that usually these guns were smoothbores. He mentions that for many years after rifles appeared they were comparatively rare and that their performance was so much better than the smoothbores that they were usually banned or, if agreed upon, separate all rifle matches were held. After 1560 special classes for rifles became more common and by 1600 they were standard.

I found it especially interesting that the smoothbore matches were held at a range of five hundred and seventy feet with a two and a half foot target and the rifle matches at a range of eight hundred and five feet using a three and a half foot target. These matches were fired off hand without any sort of support and against the clock. These were circular targets. Considering the quality of the powder available at this time, this is amazing. I'll have to do some research, but I believe they were still using "mealy" powder at this time--just a loose, uncorned mixture of ingredients. If so, getting consistent results required skills above and beyond those now required of a muzzleloader shooter.
 
Thanks, Russ. I just had never heard of such contests here in this country. I am betting it was the Swiss, because of their long tradition of independence, and citizen militias.
 
Duke,
I have 2 smoothbores; one a smooth rifle with a typical 42" barrel and one a fowler with a 72" barrel. The 72" fowler comes in at 11 pounds and we shoot it offhamd.
Mark
 
Russ,
I have some pictures of the fowler but don't know how to post. I would be glad to send them to you, or someone, if you can post them.
Mark
 
Talk about getting off of the topic! :grin:

This is from a Private Topic I sent to a member about putting pictures on our forum.
Hopefully there are enough of you interested in this that you won't pound knots on my head for posting it.

To post a picture on the forum you first have to join a place that stores photos for the web.
Photobucket is a good place and it is free. All you have to do is join it. They don't send spam and they don't sell your e-mail address to anyone either.

Next, you have to have the picture(s) downloaded from your computer to the Photobucket site.

To do this, go to your Photobucket site and log in.
In the middle of the screen is a box that says "UPLOAD IMAGES AND VIDEO".
When you click on CHOOSE FILES it will take you to a little window that represents your computer files. It will probably be showing your desktop or photo file area but whatever it is, click thru your computer in this window until you get to the folder where you have saved your picture(s). Then click on the folder to open it up.

Click on the picture you want to upload to Photobucket and click the OPEN button.
Photobucket will begin uploading your picture data into itself.
When it is finished it will show you a little thumbnail picture of your picture with some lines under it.

At the bottom of the listing is a line called
IMG code which stands for Image Code. This is the right language for using on our forum.

Click on that line WITH YOUR LEFT MOUSE button and it should turn yellow and say "COPIED" meaning the text was copied into your computers temporary memory.

Now, come back to the forum and start your post just like you have before. When you get to where you want to put the picture, click your right mouse button. It will open a little window.
Scroll down it to the word "Paste" and click on it like I'm doing now
zonie3.jpg


It will enter a great big line of text and symbols and stuff.
That stuff tells our forum to go to photobucket and download that files data and show it.

The only other thing that I might suggest is if you have a photo editor for your pictures on your computer you might try reducing the size down to about 700 pixels wide. That will reduce the file size and make it load and transfer faster.

Now, back to the main topic. :grin:
 
Duke, General US Grant actually preferred smoothbores to rifles when his troops were lined up against the Southern boys behind Vicksburg. In his memoirs he states that his troops were shooting 5 balls down range (buck and ball was a standard load)and the Southern riflemen were only shooting one ball back. Since they were lined up 50 yards apart the Northern troops quickly decimated their opponents.

Firepower was the advantage of the smoothbore, especially with buck and ball even in the era of the rifle.

Many Klatch
 
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