Flintlock Hawken??

[roundball]

To be clear, I wasn't actually questioning you as an individual...I was just so shocked at such a low number that I wondered how much might have been based upon modern attempts to piece together old, partial references and sketchy records, then make speculation about it, etc.
PS: It wouldn't do for me to attend any such event because I have a houseful of TC Hawkens! ::

 

[gordy]

Just out of curiousity,Wasn't there several other smaller less known and unknown gunmakers produceing a few rifles a year durring the period from 1800-1840? I'm quite certain that there were some trappers that even put together their own guns from parts gathered from different sources.Some Rifles found from that era that were made up of locks ,furniture barrels,stocks and other componets.From the the information I've gleaned from reading various books articles and accounts,I'd have to agree that the St.Louis Hawkens were not found in great numbers.It would seem that many trade guns were used by the pilgrims untill they could trade up to something better.I feel that those folks that set the rules and standards for period correct do a good job,But a little more lattitude in the rules might get more people started in reenacting. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Stumpkiller]

Would a Hawken be more common than say a Dimick, Leman, Golcher, Henry, Tyron or other half-stocked plains style rifle of that era? I don't think so.

My list of the Hawken's contemporaries was in the first reply to the original post.

 

[Ohio Joe]

Absolutely!!! There were many rifle makers from that era besides Hawken, and Henry. There was, Le Conte, J.V. Bouis, Migneron, Lakenam, Huber & Hoffman, Roper, Altinger, Jackson, Labeau, and all of these besides Henry, were at one time in business in St. Louis from as far back as 1804 to 1840, and beyond. The list would have to be huge if one added all the gunsmiths from the east. Some gunmakers from the east besides Henry who's rifles ended up out west during this time were; Tryon, Deringer, Goetz, Fordney, Gill, Leman, Gumpf, Bender, Gonter, Miles, Ghriskey, Crabb, the list just goes on! If I had a week to set down at the Fur Trade Museum's Library, 25 miles east of me I'm sure I could compile a list that would put us all in awe of how many there were. I just don't have the time right now. Maybe this coming winter??? To remark on your other comment in your reply, gordy,,, right now I think there is lattitude when it comes to buckskinning. Probably more so then in any other reenactment group. If you don't allow for this, how will you pass it on to the young ones... It's mighty expensive to outfit kids each year who are continually growing!!! Also, I don't know how big each gunmaker was. I expect the one's who filled contracts for the fur companies must have been fairly big, like Henry, Tryon, and Deringer, to name a few.

 

Yes, Ohio Joe, your right on track. But lets look at the basic breakdown of gun manufacturing during the fur trade era.
There were 3 distinct types of gunmakers-
1. GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS: Henry, Leman, Tyron, Deringer all fall into this catagory. Why was the government hiring these people? For the Indian trade and military. Henry and Tyron were big in military while Deringer was pretty much the pioneer for Indian trade RIFLES(not smoothbores). Followed by Tryon and finishing up with Leman. I'm sure there were a lot of smaller makers for this trade, but these were the "big boys". Tryon did both. Funny you should mention Tryon, I'm having one built as we speak. A copy of the specimen in the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, NE. in .52 cal.- can't wait!!
2. FUR COMPANY CONTRACTS: For a long time the American Fur Company was king in the fur industry. They instructed certain eastern gunmakers to create a super, mountainized version of the basic pennslyvania rifle. Thus was created the J. Henry Trade rifle in Lancaster pattern and English pattern. John J. Henry pretty much WAS the biggest eastern producer of firearms due to his ability to mass produce them. He was one of the first "factory" companies. You know, one guy does locks, another stock work, another barrels and so on. Kind of like the Ford assembly line idea.
Those models first appeared on the scene in 1826, after that a lot of smaller makers followed suit, but none as big as J. Henry.
3. INDIVIDUAL "CUSTOM" MAKERS: The little guy! Henceforth, enters the Hawkens, Gill, Brandt, Dimick, etc. They built each piece one at a time. Slow, but good quality, and expensive as hell.
HEY, THIS IS FUN, GLAD I FOUND YOU BOYS!!!!!!!!!!
WAGH!
Manynames

 

[Ohio Joe]

Manynames,,, I'm glad you found us too. There is a bunch of knowledge out here on this forum and I'm sure more to come! I live 25 miles west of Chadron, NE... Probably saw the rifle your having built a dozen times or more. Do you come to the Fur Trade Rendezvous, here in July? This is a shot in the dark but,,, a Mr. Stumph wouldn't by chance be building that rifle now, would he???

 

No, actually I live in the Milwaukee, WI. area and the gentleman that is building the piece lives in Green Bay.

Half the fun of having a rifle built(for my anyway) is picking a specific gun in history and researching it, followed up by photos of surviving pieces around the country. It's amazing what one can find.
I found 4 examples of Tryon's- 1 in Philadelphia, 1 at Chadron, 1 in Madison, WI. and last one on the internet. Originals give you a ton of information.
Through this research, I even found a copy of an out of print 1911 book written by the grandson, Charles Tryon, about the Tryon firearms manufacturing business!
It pays to "dig"!
Manynames

 

[Ohio Joe]

Manynames,,, Of the four rifles, have you noticed much differance in them? I've only read good things about them and feel they were a quality firearm. Maybe when it's complete you could post us a picture if you have access to do that? I wish I did, but right now I don't. Maybe in the future?

 

[Herb]

If you want a flintlock hawken, here's one made by Neill Fields of Vernal, Utah. Randy owns it. This is a Ron Long lock, Green River barrel, and historically correct. Museum quality. Neill made barrels for the Green River Rifle Works, then went on to build custom rifles for them. He had the original Jim Bridger Hawken and others to design from.