For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

[tenngun]

I could pick them out correctly every time.

Might ask Dave Person about the British ordnance standards and the overall quality of originals.

Maybe you could, but I doubt 95% of us could.
Can you show me a better wood to metal fit in an origanal, show me a tougher barrel
Back in the day it was written that a kings musket could hit the figure of a man at eighty yards ….if not exceedingly illy bored…. As many of them are.
It was commented tat as much as a ten percent failure to fire rate was common,
My Indian gun will hit the figure of a man at one hundred yards ever time and at a hundred and fifty half the time
I’m willing to bet my barrel is safer and better bored then a great portion of kings muskets

 

[Clark Badgett]

Maybe you could, but I doubt 95% of us could.
Can you show me a better wood to metal fit in an origanal, show me a tougher barrel
Back in the day it was written that a kings musket could hit the figure of a man at eighty yards ….if not exceedingly illy bored…. As many of them are.
It was commented tat as much as a ten percent failure to fire rate was common,
My Indian gun will hit the figure of a man at one hundred yards ever time and at a hundred and fifty half the time
I’m willing to bet my barrel is safer and better bored then a great portion of kings muskets

Well, there are a number of very excellent references that often enough get into the minutiae of probably the most popular musket ever devised. So go spend $70 combined and get Goldstein and Baileys last books. Then you tell me how the wood to metal finish is on many of the originals after 210-260ish years and real campaigns later.

And go run some .690” balls down your .77” barrel and tell me how many targets you hit at 150 yds.

Sitting and publicly admitting that you are toting around a grossly inaccurately built gun is not a good way to convince me that reenactors are usually quite farby.

 

[tenngun]

Well, there are a number of very excellent references that often enough get into the minutiae of probably the most popular musket ever devised. So go spend $70 combined and get Goldstein and Baileys last books. Then you tell me how the wood to metal finish is on many of the originals after 210-260ish years and real campaigns later.

And go run some .690” balls down your .77” barrel and tell me how many targets you hit at 150 yds.

Sitting and publicly admitting that you are toting around a grossly inaccurately built gun is not a good way to convince me that reenactors are usually quite farby.

I think you missed the point. According to contemporary sources the originals were often illy bored. And MAY hit the figure of a man at eighty yards
And I’ve been around ml all my life, and not seen better metal to wood fit on any gun
Now Indian guns have too much wood, but and sometimes I understand sap wood is seen. It’s not on mine and an hour or so was all needed to bring my wood down
We’re all farby at some point
I’m less farby then thou is an attitude that just drives people away from the sport
You should be proud of your guns
But don’t look down your nose at others

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

If some want an Indian gun with a little elbow grease put into it why not?

 

[French Colonial]

And you last paragraph is just plain dumb. If I don’t know, I have no problems asking. And I know they had a lot of stuff we don’t commonly think of

So you admit that you do not know things....And they had a lot of stuff "we" don't commonly think of....

But you put down reenactors in general after admitting you do not know and they had stuff that you don't know....

I think you are one of those experts that add nothing to the conversation, and so I will not waste anymore time on you, another one into the lock box....

 

[FlinterNick]

So you admit that you do not know things....And they had a lot of stuff "we" don't commonly think of....

But you put down reenactors in general after admitting you do not know and they had stuff that you don't know....

I think you are one of those experts that add nothing to the conversation, and so I will not waste anymore time on you, another one into the lock box....

Not trying to speak for someone else but the point he was making that if he doesn’t know he asks, he doesn’t just throw conjecture and assumptions out there like …. A regular person coudln't pick out an original Bess from a line up of 10 Indian repro’s.

 

[FlinterNick]

If some want an Indian gun with a little elbow grease put into it why not?

No problem with people owning them.

But i do have a problem with the false assertions they make about them being historically accurate, and up to the quality of an original Bess (fresh off the rack) and some other reproduction guns such Japanese made and Italian made reproductions. They’re cheaper for a reason, and it’s not because of inflation has not hit the Indian economy.

 

[French Colonial]

Not trying to speak for someone else but the point he was making that if he doesn’t know he asks, he doesn’t just throw conjecture and assumptions out there like …. A regular person coudln't pick out an original Bess from a line up of 10 Indian repro’s.

If he asked, he would not have to assume..... and he would not assume that the majority of reenactors are campers in funny clothes. But maybe in the circles he travels in they are. But again, he should not paint with such a broad brush.

Getting back to Bess's..... I could not pick an original from an India repro...mostly because I do not care enough about them to bother to look.

I bought a Pedersoli Bess back in the dark ages and one of the best days I had with it was when I found someone that wanted to buy it, I could not sell it fast enough.

 

[Tumbledown]

That may change soon.

Pedersoli is going to make a LLP Bess? Or retool their SLP? Because that's what my comment specifically referred to when tenngun said you could get a Bess from them.

 

[cebusey]

When I hear talk about differences in particular guns from original my eyes glaze over
Take a pedi bess and Indian and a custom made bench copy
Mix them with a half dozen originals and take a black and white photo so the difference in new and old wood aren’t seen
Then see if any expert can pick it out
I bet few can
And I’m willing to bet that the el cheapo Indian has comparable fit and finish compared to original. I know mine has fine inlets and well finished wood, and importantly shoots better and more reliably then the original

I have an original P59 Enfield made by Enfield. Barrel was toast and not able to be used for firing. I bought an Indian made barrel from Loyalist and it was pretty much a drop in. Fit the barrel channel perfectly, had to bend the tang and drill it. It has a rifle rear sight instead of a post which the musket originally had - now it looks like a P53 unless I want to replace the sight. All this to say that Indian arms are not always inaccurate and can sometimes best the Italian repros. No way an Italian barrel would have fit.

 

[Jay Templin]

And it’s also true. As much as you harp about documenting everything, but you defend the “if they had it, they would use it” crowd. 90% of reenactors are farbs, and the more easily an era is to document the worst it gets.

If 90% of the reenactors you encounter are farbs, you’re doing the wrong events.
Jay

 

[Brokennock]

Why did someone have to resurrect this antique topic? On a subject that always just produces pages of pointless arguing.....

 

[Butch Martin]

That may change soon.

OK, so Italy and India are both lacking. What we need is an effort from...CHINA!

 

[Fitzhugh Williams]

Some years back I was in the market for a French 1728 fusil. The only place you could buy them was from an India importer or from The Rifle Shoppe. I went to an event at Crown Point with money in hand to buy an import, but by the time I arrived there was only one left and it was just not acceptable. The next year I went back to the same vendor and he had eight. Two were exactly what I had been looking for, most were just average and a couple I would not touch. The quality varied greatly. In the meantime I had ordered the parts from The Rifle Shoppe and built my own. I have never been sorry about that decision. Also, I have the instructions a friend gave me on how to make a 1728 India gun more accurate. He did an excellent job on his.

 

[sturmkatze]

Reenactors liking something is not always a ringing endorsement. 9 of 10 of them don’t know much beyond what a vendor tells them.

Most reenacting is merely camping in funny clothing.

Not true at all. However, they are also not all rich. And, who in their right mind is going to take $3500 custom musket out in the field to thrash on it. And yeah, that happens. There are many types of reenactors who reenact for many different reasons. Some are interested in clothing, some in tactics. There are just so many reasons. Some of us are “gun nuts”. Some are in it for the culture it the “time tripping”. None are wrong.

Anyway, you are incorrect in your statement here. And, guess what? As you grow in your impression, you get better stuff. But to start, unless you have a lot of cash, you start out with less authentic kit.

 

[sturmkatze]

My sample was quite large. 10 years large, multiple eras. Pulling stuff out of my back side really is not my style.

There are much better options than Indian or Italian muskets, and you have been around long enough to know that.

To you. That is an opinion. You do not get to choose for others. I don’t think you understand the hobby.

 

[sturmkatze]

And it’s also true. As much as you harp about documenting everything, but you defend the “if they had it, they would use it” crowd. 90% of reenactors are farbs, and the more easily an era is to document the worst it gets.

If you feel that way, you should stay out of our hobby. Take up doll collecting or beanie babies. No one is perfect. No is issued anything. There is no “boot camp” to train them. They do this as volunteers — many times having to sacrifice to buy kit. Yet, you sneer at them. I think that is the worst type of person in the hobby.

What do you do to help people besides criticize?

 

[sturmkatze]

I could pick them out correctly every time.

Might ask Dave Person about the British ordnance standards and the overall quality of originals.

I have. I met him. I showed him my pedersoli Brown Bess defarb. He gave approval and suggested a couple of more things — on my list to do. Dave is a nice guy and he’s someone that helps others. What do you do besides sneer at people? Who are you to criticize someone because all they can afford is an Indian musket? In reenacting, I always tell people “if you improve even one part of your kit every time you come out, you’re no farb.”

How do you help fellow reenactors?

 

[sturmkatze]

That may change soon.

It would be nice. Still, how much would pedersoli charge? How accurate would it be? You’ve told me that the pedersoli Bess is more kite a 7/8ths scale… will they do it right or, go the cheap route?

I wish there was a decent replacement stock for Indian guns (and pedersoli)… and some way to just replace parts as you go. I’ve read Dave’s articles on redoing the pedersoli Bess — this stuff is great. I understand where you’re coming from — how much is your time worth?

 

[sturmkatze]

Well, there are a number of very excellent references that often enough get into the minutiae of probably the most popular musket ever devised. So go spend $70 combined and get Goldstein and Baileys last books. Then you tell me how the wood to metal finish is on many of the originals after 210-260ish years and real campaigns later.

And go run some .690” balls down your .77” barrel and tell me how many targets you hit at 150 yds.

Sitting and publicly admitting that you are toting around a grossly inaccurately built gun is not a good way to convince me that reenactors are usually quite farby.

Why are you so mean and argumentative? It’s attitudes like yours that turn people off our hobby. And I’ve been reenacting since 1989 (not counting shooting black powder since 1979 or so). You need to look at what you write and say.