For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

[Grenadier1758]

I do the reenactments of the French and Indian War. The Pedersoli 2nd Model Land Pattern Muskets were not available until the American War of Independence. The correct First Model Lond Land Pattern is not offered by Pedersoli. While the unit would accept members with the Pedersoli musket, I wanted the correct Long Land Pattern. Choices were limited to Rifle Shop Patterns. If you were lucky there were Long Land Patterns from Narragansett Arms and very hard to come by Long Land Muskets from Dixie. The only reasonably affordable choice was a Long Land Pattern Musket from Loyalist Arms. Even there one had to get the appropriate variant as some were too early. I chose a tuned and used version with the Dublin Castle lock. My unit was part of the Irish Establishment. To be sure it was about 2 pounds heavier than it should have been. My musket has been reliable. I think over the years it has been gaining weight as I do.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Rock Home Isle,
I want you to know that I am not all talk. I walk the walk. Every year I either donate a gun I built or reworked to a deserving reenactor or I build one for a deserving and serious living historian pro bono. I make sure they have really historically correct and perfectly functioning guns to add to their historical persona. Unfortunately, I am only one person and can only do so much.

dave

 

[Coinneach]

For the folks who are not very deep into the muzzleloading hobby its very easy to move from complicated rifle shoppe kits to indian made muskets, it always appears to be a consumer issue.

So you have nothing…

Read my post 70 on this thread.

 

[Grenadier1758]

!00% Correct. But I think the sticking point is modern day quality control and proofing which the Indian Guns lack. I think its a valid concern by some. Thus some dislike by some in regards to Indian made Guns. Why take chances when there is better choices?

Remember that firearms made (or sold) in the US are not required to be proofed. Yes, US manufacturers do build according to certain firearms standards, but there is no proof testing.

 

[Coinneach]

Anecdotal stories…no factual evidence…so again nothing…the internet can be so frustrating.

Why the intense hate against a fairly decent product? I’ll be the first to admit that India made guns are a work in progress. And there are only a couple of importers that have mostly solved the quality issues. These guns usually need some attention after purchase.

I’ve seen these products come a long ways from where they were 20 years ago, yeah pretty bad…but I would consider myself to be ignorant, uninformed, and biased, to make such a statement today.

I don’t understand these guys, with their hate, that spout doom & gloom, make these horrible claims about how bad these India made products clearly are…and then resort to personal insults, and unfounded statements when asked for verification and evidence.

Could it be that a lot of the low quality products are being funneled into Aussie Land?
Could it be Emotional Damage….??

The cause of the intensity of emotions, concerning these inanimate objects eludes me….

"Anecdotal stories...no factual evidence" What part of eyewitness account dont you understand ?

"Why the intense hate against a fairly decent product?" Why the accusation ? Theres no"intense hate" in anything I wrote on this thread, or "personal insults" whats your next move declaring me a Racist ?

I wont bother addressing your other slights and sarcasm, best to ignore you from here on.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Hi Rock Home Isle,
I want you to know that I am not all talk. I walk the walk. Every year I either donate a gun I built or reworked to a deserving reenactor or I build one for a deserving and serious living historian pro bono. I make sure they have really historically correct and perfectly functioning guns to add to their historical persona. Unfortunately, I am only one person and can only do so much.

dave

Pick me Dave Person,

 

[Coinneach]

Don't mess with Rudyard.What he says he's done-HE HAS DONE. HE'S BEEN THERE - HE'S DONE THAT. He was doing that when I first met him in the 1960's and still doe's it .OLD DOG

Rudyard and I get on very well and I have the utmost respect for him, as I mentioned in my thread to him I wasnt questioning what he posted, and I can only comment on the Indian ML's that I personally witnessed here in Australia.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Hi Rock Home Isle,
I want you to know that I am not all talk. I walk the walk. Every year I either donate a gun I built or reworked to a deserving reenactor or I build one for a deserving and serious living historian pro bono. I make sure they have really historically correct and perfectly functioning guns to add to their historical persona. Unfortunately, I am only one person and can only do so much.

dave

@dave_person I have read many of your posts. You are a fine genuine person, I greatly appreciate your knowledge, and what you’ve given to this community. Wish I had half your capabilities…

 

[Coinneach]

In my ten years of Rev War enacting around the Bi-Cen, I say numerous caked, neglected, rusted, muskets. Re-enactors, many of them, like the "costumes" and the newspaper exposure, but have no interest in truly behaving like actual soldiers.

We've had some very professional reenacting groups here in Australia, mainly the Napoleonic genre, they include some ex and retired servicemen and maintain reasonably high standards.

 

[Coinneach]

I like Rudyard!

Ditto

 

[Coinneach]

Responses inline.

Hi Rock Home Isle,
I want you to know that I am not all talk. I walk the walk. Every year I either donate a gun I built or reworked to a deserving reenactor or I build one for a deserving and serious living historian pro bono. I make sure they have really historically correct and perfectly functioning guns to add to their historical persona. Unfortunately, I am only one person and can only do so much.

dave

Thank you sir, youre a good man.

 

[Coinneach]

Responses inline.

Read my post 70 on this thread.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

"Anecdotal stories...no factual evidence" What part of eyewitness account dont you understand ?

"Why the intense hate against a fairly decent product?" Why the accusation ? Theres no"intense hate" in anything I wrote on this thread, or "personal insults" whats your next move declaring me a Racist ?

I wont bother addressing your other slights and sarcasm, best to ignore you from here on.

To my recollection…I’ve really only disagreed with you in this thread.

On other topics, in other threads, we’ve been very harmonious with strong agreement…

 

[wganz]

So, I have not read all five pages, but have we decided anything? Are the India guns GTG or what? ; )

Well, sometimes sort of GTG. Our Aussie gent, Coinneach, has the proverbial boat load of experience with these and, particularly, in the re-enactment side of the house. He pointed out that the emphasis on uniforms and making bang seems to put weapon's maintenance low on the priority list leading to issues from marginal parts made by a Kyber Pass style of manufacturing process. Their wood is heavier & bulkier than originals; but, more prone to breakage. This is exacerbated in the historical re-enactment events due to a more rough & tumble scenario.

Personally, based on what all has been posted, I am going to get my Baker Rifle from Loyalist Arms due to the quality of rework they do on their products prior to sale. Pedersoli and Dixie Gun Works neither have such an offering, leaving me no option but to go to Loyalist Arms to get a Baker Rifle. Coinneach has not said anything about the shops offering Indian guns in the states due to them not being local to him down under other that one needs to expect them to be an assembled kit. Loyalist Arms has the best reported rep from all the shops mentioned in this thread; hence, my choice of them.

The Baker Rifle has a specific spot in Texas history due to its use during the Alamo battle.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Well, sometimes sort of GTG. Our Aussie gent, Coinneach, has the proverbial boat load of experience with these and, particularly, in the re-enactment side of the house. He pointed out that the emphasis on uniforms and making bang seems to put weapon's maintenance low on the priority list leading to issues from marginal parts made by a Kyber Pass style of manufacturing process. Their wood is heavier & bulkier than originals; but, more prone to breakage. This is exacerbated in the historical re-enactment events due to a more rough & tumble scenario.

Personally, based on what all has been posted, I am going to get my Baker Rifle from Loyalist Arms due to the quality of rework they do on their products prior to sale. Pedersoli and Dixie Gun Works neither have such an offering, leaving me no option but to go to Loyalist Arms to get a Baker Rifle. Coinneach has not said anything about the shops offering Indian guns in the states due to them not being local to him down under other that one needs to expect them to be an assembled kit. Loyalist Arms has the best reported rep from all the shops mentioned in this thread; hence, my choice of them.

The Baker Rifle has a specific spot in Texas history due to its use during the Alamo battle.

I like the way you think.

 

[Rudyard]

I remember Boot and Brother, the Tomahawks traveling with Curly. Fun guys, for sure.

Wasn' t Possum Jim in the mix? I did the first Shawnee /Crabs was booshway then later Trolls .I did about 17 Easterns & a raft of N Eastern's .Any kind of event going F&I ,Mutiny'(Rev war ) Un Civil, even SCA at Pensic . Niagra, Oswego , Mississinawa ,the Feast , New Boston , Fort Fred . Had far too much fun. Fort Ti .Married at Fort Ti up on Mount Defiance (She's been defieing me ever since) But did' Death of Lord Howe 'with my first born plus De Chartres, ,Collodon . in catsgils & Fort at number four . Dixons fairs . Never had an event name but my own though it wasn't 'Rudyard'
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Well, sometimes sort of GTG. Our Aussie gent, Coinneach, has the proverbial boat load of experience with these and, particularly, in the re-enactment side of the house. He pointed out that the emphasis on uniforms and making bang seems to put weapon's maintenance low on the priority list leading to issues from marginal parts made by a Kyber Pass style of manufacturing process. Their wood is heavier & bulkier than originals; but, more prone to breakage. This is exacerbated in the historical re-enactment events due to a more rough & tumble scenario.

Personally, based on what all has been posted, I am going to get my Baker Rifle from Loyalist Arms due to the quality of rework they do on their products prior to sale. Pedersoli and Dixie Gun Works neither have such an offering, leaving me no option but to go to Loyalist Arms to get a Baker Rifle. Coinneach has not said anything about the shops offering Indian guns in the states due to them not being local to him down under other that one needs to expect them to be an assembled kit. Loyalist Arms has the best reported rep from all the shops mentioned in this thread; hence, my choice of them.

The Baker Rifle has a specific spot in Texas history due to its use during the Alamo battle.

The whole Sharpe's series was made using Indian made Bakers & muskets Some likely proofed in UK but others as likely not in Turkey & the Crimea where some of Sharpe's & Hornblower where filmed . I know the Armorer who did the Turkey scenes .I even put in for that job .The smooth Bakers are most common for UK Reenactors simple legal reason re licensing . I don't know if any failed he had a hard time finding tools in Turkey he told me. & Advisor Richard Moore gave me a spare ram rod so I have it in my much restored Orig Baker .I made a pistol for him non fire prop but it apparently got proofed subsequently .Richard bought them for Celtic Films in quantity not sure how or if direct maybe via Kranks ..Bit of useless info on this theme . Harpers volley gun was'' got up' from a once percussion' get up '(not original) the rear was a back action French lock & the cock & pan & steel feather spring was the front end of a 'Grice lock' . If the one he carrys is fiberglass & he apparently didn't like guns .
Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Don't mess with Rudyard.What he says he's done-HE HAS DONE. HE'S BEEN THERE - HE'S DONE THAT. He was doing that when I first met him in the 1960's and still doe's it .OLD DOG

Dear 'Old Dog 'Thank you for your spirited if perhaps not too necessary support .You made my day . oddly I wrote an article on how to sort these guns out meant for the MLAGB " Black Powder " or Frank Pages Notts & Derby "Magazine" but nobody ran it , too technical perhaps ? . They certainly create some heat in these pages. I can only go on what I've experienced I am actually on excellent terms with the Australian members there's nothing partisan or parochial about me least non I know of . I even speak 'Strine' ( holding my nose to prevent it being mistaken for Yorkshire !) .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Coinneach]

Well, sometimes sort of GTG. Our Aussie gent, Coinneach, has the proverbial boat load of experience with these and, particularly, in the re-enactment side of the house. He pointed out that the emphasis on uniforms and making bang seems to put weapon's maintenance low on the priority list leading to issues from marginal parts made by a Kyber Pass style of manufacturing process. Their wood is heavier & bulkier than originals; but, more prone to breakage. This is exacerbated in the historical re-enactment events due to a more rough & tumble scenario.

Personally, based on what all has been posted, I am going to get my Baker Rifle from Loyalist Arms due to the quality of rework they do on their products prior to sale. Pedersoli and Dixie Gun Works neither have such an offering, leaving me no option but to go to Loyalist Arms to get a Baker Rifle. Coinneach has not said anything about the shops offering Indian guns in the states due to them not being local to him down under other that one needs to expect them to be an assembled kit. Loyalist Arms has the best reported rep from all the shops mentioned in this thread; hence, my choice of them.

The Baker Rifle has a specific spot in Texas history due to its use during the Alamo battle.

I'm getting really tired of being misquoted on this thread, "He pointed out that the emphasis on uniforms and making bang seems to put weapon's maintenance low on the priority list leading to issues from marginal parts made by a Kyber Pass style of manufacturing process. Their wood is heavier & bulkier than originals; but, more prone to breakage. "
"Coinneach has not said anything about the shops offering Indian guns in the states due to them not being local to him down under other that one needs to expect them to be an assembled kit."

Where did I write that ? Your assumptions are over the top, what is it with you lot can't you accept someone elses point of view without getting bent out of shape ?

"Coinneach, has the proverbial boat load of experience"

I'm 70 years old and began my ML experience way back in 1981 possibly before you were even born' geezus I still have the Buckskinner magazines from those days ! Not that it makes me an "expert" but it does add up to more than a smidgeon of experiences culminating in a well informed point of view worthy of some credibility beyond a mere shallow opinion.

Allow me to recommend the reading of comments passed between Rudyard and I (among others on this thread) and note the lack of sarcasm and deliberate mis-quotation therein; is it too much to ask from others of your ilk ?

As for Loyalist Arms I've had FL Pistols from them without complaint, BTW your Loyalist Baker "Rifle" isnt a Rifle, its a smoothbore; but its OK.....dream on.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Thanks Rudyard .Only trying to forward what I believe.. Shot with Denis, Frank et.al. at Epperstone with Notts Soc of Riflemen (1813) for some years. Frank could always generated some Heat in THE MAGAZINE, especially with his "BUM SHOTS"!! One day the late John H. brought along an orig.. Nock's Volley Gun togethr with the Mock-up used in the Sharps Films. Certainly the mock-up looked little like the Orig.. with its back action lock and barrels that were made from plain straight tubes cobbled together. The Hood's range is so rural and going back to 500yds. in it's hedge lined field. Miss it but the then Nottingham Road "Improvements" made the 11/2--2 hour trip a drag as I had the 5 Dogs to see too before I went for the 9.00a.m.start..Stay Well.. OLD DOG..