For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

[Rock Home Isle]

AMEN.
I'm a group's "armorer", and I'm the guy that routinely is dropping a scope down the barrels to look for pitting, and replacing worn parts, or refinishing a stock. I work mostly on personally owned muskets, Miroku and Pedersoli, but I do see the occasional Loyalist Arms or MVTC Bess, and they repay me for the parts that are applied, or the chemicals/dye/finish that I use when redoing their stocks. The India origin ones don't normally need parts, and if they do, I can't do that "in the field" as they need custom fitting.

We have found that having the lads clean right after returning from the field, as a group activity, and my having a stock of basic parts on hand (Plus a shop magnet for the privates that just can't help but loose screws in the grass where they are sitting when cleaning ) allows us to promptly maintain the guns, and thus stuff doesn't get neglected...., as time is not your friend when a musket needs "attention".

LD

This right here, makes sense.

….Course @Loyalist Dave has proven to be a reliable source for so much information, and direction…

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Here are examples of the condition of guns I get from reenactors. In this case it is a couple of Pedersolis but the condition is the same no matter the brand. The owners never removed their barrels for cleaning.

Here is a bore shot showing the pitting and gunk left in the barrel

Here is a lock and another showing the poor inletting

Even Pedersoli can make a lock a piece of junk

Now here is an India-made gun and some lock parts.

All these repros have quality issues and historical accuracy issues but add to that they often are neglected by the owners. I believe the barrel issue concerning India-made guns is a red herring. Many of those guns have some serious issues but it is not the barrels. Rudyard is right. The workers are skilled hand workers but the working conditions and materials are very primitive and they are exploited by the owners, marketers, and drive to offer the guns at low prices. What kills me is at almost $1600, a Pedersoli Bess may not function very well as bought. That is a lot of money to spend and then have to work over the gun extensively. The India guns are cheaper but even $600 to me is a lot to pay for something that may require a lot of remedial work to function reliably and safely. However, having written that, I fully realize that nothing is going to change because our consumer influence is small in a small market and of course buying a really goo reproduction from a gun maker who actually knows what he is about is expensive. So, folks will be attracted to these commercial guns because they have few other choices but what they can control is how they take care of their guns. The report highlighted in this thread strongly suggested the accident was caused by some obstruction in the barrel and that may be the result of poor maintenance.

dave

 

[Rock Home Isle]

@dave_person @Loyalist Dave and any other armorers

You guys seem to have the most reliable information. I have some questions…

Are the issues you see with India made firearms due to poor quality of product, poor owner treatment…or both?

How does Pedersoli compare?

Or do you feel that due to the higher price of a Pedersoli, they are being better maintained etc?

 

[toot]

How many hours do you have ?

What about a telephone conversation to make it easier ? BTW I'm in Australia.

NUFF SAID.

 

[FlinterNick]

AMEN.
I'm a group's "armorer", and I'm the guy that routinely is dropping a scope down the barrels to look for pitting, and replacing worn parts, or refinishing a stock. I work mostly on personally owned muskets, Miroku and Pedersoli, but I do see the occasional Loyalist Arms or MVTC Bess, and they repay me for the parts that are applied, or the chemicals/dye/finish that I use when redoing their stocks. The India origin ones don't normally need parts, and if they do, I can't do that "in the field" as they need custom fitting.

We have found that having the lads clean right after returning from the field, as a group activity, and my having a stock of basic parts on hand (Plus a shop magnet for the privates that just can't help but loose screws in the grass where they are sitting when cleaning ) allows us to promptly maintain the guns, and thus stuff doesn't get neglected...., as time is not your friend when a musket needs "attention".

LD

I’m not an armor but I did find in one barrel once that I assisted with in the field with a charleville, three stuffed patches were sitting in the breech that were basically char cloth, could a barrel burst from this….probably not but still neglect.

 

[sturmkatze]

In terms of failures this is the most common one that I see, The stock breaking. Somebody asked for photographs one was actually posted today online of a veteran arms Bess , I’ve seen this issue over a dozen times in the field.

I saw that. Did he ever say what happened? I know someone asked if he got powder behind the lock

 

[springfield art]

Not cleaning the gun regularly and also consistently loading 150 grains of 3F contributed to blowing up that barrel. The user had a fondness for large muzzle blasts.

A hundred fifty grains of FFF? Just asking for trouble! Fellow probably a clownish user.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

As above your post Rudyard, I've no problem with "the poor sods" who do what they can to make some kind of living, and obviously I lack the extensive experience you have with boots on their ground, never the less what I outlined in my last posting is what I've experienced here in the land of Aussie.

BTW I'm a Kipling follower too, my grandparents raised me and Kiplings works were the texts I first learned to read well before my school days began.

From Kiplings "The Naulahka"
"Now it is not good for the Christian's health to hustle the Aryan
brown,
For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the
Christian down;
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of
the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear: "A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the
East."

Don't mess with Rudyard.What he says he's done-HE HAS DONE. HE'S BEEN THERE - HE'S DONE THAT. He was doing that when I first met him in the 1960's and still doe's it .OLD DOG

 

[springfield art]

I’m not an armor but I did find in one barrel once that I assisted with in the field with a charleville, three stuffed patches were sitting in the breech that were basically char cloth, could a barrel burst from this….probably not but still neglect.

In my ten years of Rev War enacting around the Bi-Cen, I say numerous caked, neglected, rusted, muskets. Re-enactors, many of them, like the "costumes" and the newspaper exposure, but have no interest in truly behaving like actual soldiers.

 

[springfield art]

Don't mess with Rudyard.What he says he's done-HE HAS DONE. HE'S BEEN THERE - HE'S DONE THAT. He was doing that when I first met him in the 1960's and still doe's it .OLD DOG

I like Rudyard!

 

[GREENSWLDE]

DOM tubes. Vertually all mass produced Gun barrels for Military use until the Centre Fire guns were introduced were DOM and forge welded. They were "U"ed up from strip and closed up to a tube on a mandil under a drop hammer, then hammer welded and ground round by hand on wetstones. When I was very young a Derelict OLD GUN BARREL WORKS were next door but one to our factory in Brum. There were still line shafts for the drop hammers in place. I have only ever used mechanical solid drawn tube for any barrels I've made but no-doubt the back street gunsmiths RUDYARD talks about were still using old and tried principals. Think of all your Springefields and all our Enfields. They were made that way. Have you ever seen one Burst. I feel sure RUDYARD only ever bought the best..OLD DOG..

 

[wganz]

No pics, I dont have a Camera or phone with me when I'm reenacting, << SNIP >> .... and a lot more. Please consider taking one to capture these failures. I know that events have restrictions on such. Just if you can.

But I'm not going to waste hours trying to convince anyone, feel free to go ahead and buy Indian made if that's your style, but consider this Indian made ML<< SNIP >> I'm not asking or expecting hours of firearm evangelism on the evils of Indian guns. The Baker Rifle has a unique place in Texas history due to its use at the Alamo and the Indian guns are the only replicas readily available of this particular weapon.

The Barrels aren't drilled for Vents because they're not proofed, (it's not only about ease of importing) and not recommended for firing purposes. Having dealt with federal environmental regulations for years, I can totally understand wanting to avoid additional federal bureaucracy with 'weapon shipments'. If individuals choose to proof them then go ahead, but as I mentioned earlier; here in Australia Indian made ML's aren't considered acceptable on a live firing range; but are limited to Blank firing charges for reenactments. Different rules here, though I'm sure that there are anti-Indian fanatics at certain ranges. Shrug. Feces occurs,,,

Here in Australia, we pay a premium for American and European ML's like Pedersoli and Frontier, plus the import penalties etc., why do you think that is? Same reason that my Parker Hale Volunteer Rifle was $1,800USD. I want to participate in 500 yard NMLRA matches. But sometimes, you have to get generic since brand name isn't available.

Responses inline.

 

[Brokentaileddog]

I've been looking to buy a 62/20for a while in either a English trade or a Fusil de Chasse on this forum for a minute with nothing I can really afford ..Loyalist Arms even though they are quite backed up has either with shipping for 790.00 yea it might be a while getting it but it's out there .. I'll gladly take a notion take any members 62/20 un indian smooth bore at or around that price...just saying..

 

[Timber Wolf]

So, I have not read all five pages, but have we decided anything? Are the India guns GTG or what? ; )

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Middlesex trading reviews buy at your own risk is right …. Bbb reviews dont lie. As I’ve said before I have no problem with people buying Indian Muskets And if you do I highly recommend loyalist arms and secondary choice veteran arms.

https://www.bbb.org/us/nh/charlesto...age-trading-co-0051-92037462/customer-reviews

After reading all the negativity about this Guy why would anyone do business with Him?

 

[dave_person]

Hi Timber Wolf,
Yes, they are OK if you understand what you buy. They are neither historically correct or made to very high standards. If you are willing to accept that and also that there is some small risk that you will purchase a safe but malfunctioning lemon, they can be reasonably good working guns. The barrel safety stuff is a red herring but don't expect to be able to repair or replace parts very easily. Having written that, I could say just about the same thing for the currently produced Pedersoli Brown Bess, and it costs $1000 more. Most reenactment units I know are fine with members using India-made guns.

dave

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

I thought Indiana Jones shut that whole thing down in the Movie? LOL.

 

[dave_person]

@dave_person @Loyalist Dave and any other armorers

You guys seem to have the most reliable information. I have some questions…

Are the issues you see with India made firearms due to poor quality of product, poor owner treatment…or both?

How does Pedersoli compare?

Or do you feel that due to the higher price of a Pedersoli, they are being better maintained etc?

Hi RHI,
My previous post might answer your questions about the Pedersoli. The India made guns are of poor quality but so is Pedersoli. The problem is all of your commercially made musket choices suck. RHI, maintenance is the safety issue to be addressed regardless of whether you own an India-made gun, a Miroku made gun, or a Pedersoli. Not one India-made, Pedersoli, or Miroku Brown Bess musket would pass British ordnance inspection during the 18th century. They might survive barrel proofing and inspection but everything else would fail. They are not even as good as the Liege muskets Britain contracted for in desperation during the American War of Independence and later during the French Revolutionary Wars. So you guys, consider this. The Brown Bess musket was expected to ignite the pan priming at least 40 times without a misfire and using only 1 flint. For the French light 1763's, or what many of you call the models 1766 and 1768, that expectation of ignition was 120 without a misfire and using 3 flints.

dave

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Hi RHI,
My previous post might answer your questions about the Pedersoli. The India made guns are of poor quality but so is Pedersoli. The problem is all of your commercially made musket choices suck. RHI, maintenance is the safety issue to be addressed regardless of whether you own an India-made gun, a Miroku made gun, or a Pedersoli. Not one India-made, Pedersoli, or Miroku Brown Bess musket would pass British ordnance inspection during the 18th century. They might survive barrel proofing and inspection but everything else would fail. They are not even as good as the Liege muskets Britain contracted for in desperation during the American War of Independence and later during the French Revolutionary Wars. So you guys, consider this. The Brown Bess musket was expected to ignite the pan priming at least 40 times without a misfire and using only 1 flint. For the French light 1763's, or what many of you call the models 1766 and 1768, that expectation of ignition was 120 without a misfire and using 3 flints.

dave

Your previous post was perfect…I saw your intro…and then wrote my post…you addressed everything very well. Thank you very much for your experienced and detailed insight. Very helpful, and much appreciated.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Hi RHI,
My previous post might answer your questions about the Pedersoli. The India made guns are of poor quality but so is Pedersoli. The problem is all of your commercially made musket choices suck. RHI, maintenance is the safety issue to be addressed regardless of whether you own an India-made gun, a Miroku made gun, or a Pedersoli. Not one India-made, Pedersoli, or Miroku Brown Bess musket would pass British ordnance inspection during the 18th century. They might survive barrel proofing and inspection but everything else would fail. They are not even as good as the Liege muskets Britain contracted for in desperation during the American War of Independence and later during the French Revolutionary Wars. So you guys, consider this. The Brown Bess musket was expected to ignite the pan priming at least 40 times without a misfire and using only 1 flint. For the French light 1763's, or what many of you call the models 1766 and 1768, that expectation of ignition was 120 without a misfire and using 3 flints.

dave

!00% Correct. But I think the sticking point is modern day quality control and proofing which the Indian Guns lack. I think its a valid concern by some. Thus some dislike by some in regards to Indian made Guns. Why take chances when there is better choices?