For bird hunting purposes, how much of an improvement is a dedicated, proper shotgun vs a fowler, fusil or trade gun? I understand that shotguns can be choked while the others can be jug choked. But given the lower speeds from black powder, how much extra range would this offer over a cylinder bore trade gun or similar smooth rifle setup?
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Fowler/Trade Gun or Proper Shotgun?
- Thread starter Nuthatch
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Brokennock
Cannon
Restriction chokes can make loading difficult. Any of them can be jug choked.
What type of bird hunting are we talking about? How close are the shots?
Regardless of choke and distance of shooting, the ability of the gun/shooter combination to perform well when wingshooting is largely determined by the fit of the gun to the shooter. This also is not exclusive to which type of gun. Any of the 3 guns that fits you perfectly will perform better than either of the others if they don't fit as well.
What type of bird hunting are we talking about? How close are the shots?
Regardless of choke and distance of shooting, the ability of the gun/shooter combination to perform well when wingshooting is largely determined by the fit of the gun to the shooter. This also is not exclusive to which type of gun. Any of the 3 guns that fits you perfectly will perform better than either of the others if they don't fit as well.
You know what, all this can be over thunked.
They all just work fine.
That said the only thing I have noticed that truly extends range is a heavy gun, heavy charge and heavy load of slightly larger shot.
They all just work fine.
That said the only thing I have noticed that truly extends range is a heavy gun, heavy charge and heavy load of slightly larger shot.
I get the fit issue. But it has never really been enough of a consideration for me to worry about it. With my centerfires, I certainly shoot better with my adult-sized 12 ga. But it's not like I shoot bad with my wife's youth-model 20. It just takes longer to get into a shooting position. That compact 20 ga Worked fine for quail & rabbit when I used to hunt them and that was some fast shooting (mountain quail).
Species? Just about everything, I suppose. I've hunted dove, quail, duck & turkey with my 12 ga. that sported a 30" barrel. I'm kind of a 1 general tool kind of guy more than a dedicated specialty tool for every use. With my 12 ga, I used to swap out the chokes to hunt with either improved cyl or modified for quail. But full or even extra full for everything else, including dove. I liked that it was usually a clean miss or solid hit with those tighter chokes. If I had a fixed choke, I think full would suit me just fine. Maybe modified for BP stuff. But only if it's worthwhile to do so. If I'm not going to be shooting past 20 yards anyway due to velocity barriers, then I'd rather just keep it stock and have a better ball shooter too.
Species? Just about everything, I suppose. I've hunted dove, quail, duck & turkey with my 12 ga. that sported a 30" barrel. I'm kind of a 1 general tool kind of guy more than a dedicated specialty tool for every use. With my 12 ga, I used to swap out the chokes to hunt with either improved cyl or modified for quail. But full or even extra full for everything else, including dove. I liked that it was usually a clean miss or solid hit with those tighter chokes. If I had a fixed choke, I think full would suit me just fine. Maybe modified for BP stuff. But only if it's worthwhile to do so. If I'm not going to be shooting past 20 yards anyway due to velocity barriers, then I'd rather just keep it stock and have a better ball shooter too.
Part of my thinking here is due to my experience last weekend. I took some shots at a few coots at the farther end of my range (25 yards) with my .50 smoothbore. One crippled and ran off into the reeds (lost). Another ran off and appeared unscathed (disappeared). A third was out at about 30 yards and didn't even appear hit (pattern too wide, I'm sure). The last was a gimmie shot on the wing at about 15-20 yards and I just plain missed -- my fault on that one. 45 gr. powder, 1 oz #6 Bismuth shot. It has me wondering whether a dedicated shotgun, where cards, wads & load information is pretty widely available, might be better suited to the application.
See now, I don't buy this so called velocity handicap!
The September I took to high speed geese.
One at 35ish yards and one at 50ish yards!
The only time I had a velocity issue was when I used the course powder nonsense!
The September I took to high speed geese.
One at 35ish yards and one at 50ish yards!
The only time I had a velocity issue was when I used the course powder nonsense!
45gns!! 4f? If not 4f not enough velocity.
I drop around 55gns in my .45!
Guess I'll have to try that next time I'm at the range. Pyrodex is 2F equivalent. Hmm... Wondering what a square 75 would do...
megasupermagnum
45 Cal.
I'm pretty sure a fowler is a shotgun, why else would it be called a fowler? Anything can be choked if you really want. With bismuth you definitely need more shot than powder by a wide margin. The old 1:1 rules do not apply to anything but lead. I'm unsure of what your velocity was, but according to Goex, 50gr FFg and a round ball should be doing 1140 fps. I really doubt your load was under 1000 fps, which is plenty of speed. Since you mention coot, I'm assuming you shot them on the water. A bird on the water is one of the toughest targets there are. They are basically impervious to shot in the body, and only head shots work. If you don't have an real dense pattern, you won't get them.
If you intend on doing a good amount of bird hunting, get yourself a fowler or sxs in a decent gauge, at least 20 gauge. Then you can at least shoot some reasonable hunting loads. Get up to 12-10 gauge and you are free to load to your shoulders content.
If you intend on doing a good amount of bird hunting, get yourself a fowler or sxs in a decent gauge, at least 20 gauge. Then you can at least shoot some reasonable hunting loads. Get up to 12-10 gauge and you are free to load to your shoulders content.
Snydly
54 Cal.
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Look at a box of smokeless shotgun shells. Determine which box would be appropriate for what you want to hunt. On the box it has the load information. Convert the drams to grains.... Load that much powder in your fowler,,, then load the same amount of shot and the same size shot. That load will approximate the same power that the smokeless load would have. I am a firm believer in the Mike Bellevue loads for a fowler. My 20 gauge load for hunting is 90 grains of FFg and one and three quarter ounce of shot. It is dangerous to birds out to 40 yards. That load got me 2 turkeys last year.
I think that the gun a man should have is the one he likes to be seen with. If he likes to be seen with it, it probably works for him.
Smoothbores without choke are 25 yard guns. Small bores will have a long shot string. There are reasons most dedicated wing shooting shotguns are larger gauge and have chokes. Anyone hunting with their smoothbore should do patterning, on paper with a clay pigeon hanging on the board. Try 5 shots at 30 yards and count how many times you smoke the clay pigeon.
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On your jug choked bores. In my 12ga I use a 13ga wad, patterned the load and found absolutely no change.
Doc,
Brokennock
Cannon
Now see I don't buy this notion of looking on a box of shotgun cartridges for the dram equivalent. No way will a muzzleloader with its vented breech match the performance of a sealed breech via a cartridge.
To get a muzzleloader to match a cartridge you have to add much more powder and much more shot to which I have no issue in doing other than cost.
I here this thing about muzzleloadrs are 25 yard guns with cylinder bores but it simply is not so. Just put more shot in it, stop using anything courser than 3f and stop using thick wads.
Another thing I don't get is how it is believed that a larger bore is better because the shot string is shorter. Not so. If that were true all the popular 20g or .62" muzzleloafers would be useless! My .45 certainly has proved itself!
Does not choking lengthen the shot string to achieve a tighter pattern?
Is not therefore a smaller bore already matching a choked bore of a larger gauge somewhat with a like for like load?
Is not a smaller bore going to have higher pressure and henceforth higher velocity compared to a larger gauge with like for like load?
Its all myths and bluster!
As I said earlier, they all work and better than some think, especially when you think out the box!
To get a muzzleloader to match a cartridge you have to add much more powder and much more shot to which I have no issue in doing other than cost.
I here this thing about muzzleloadrs are 25 yard guns with cylinder bores but it simply is not so. Just put more shot in it, stop using anything courser than 3f and stop using thick wads.
Another thing I don't get is how it is believed that a larger bore is better because the shot string is shorter. Not so. If that were true all the popular 20g or .62" muzzleloafers would be useless! My .45 certainly has proved itself!
Does not choking lengthen the shot string to achieve a tighter pattern?
Is not therefore a smaller bore already matching a choked bore of a larger gauge somewhat with a like for like load?
Is not a smaller bore going to have higher pressure and henceforth higher velocity compared to a larger gauge with like for like load?
Its all myths and bluster!
As I said earlier, they all work and better than some think, especially when you think out the box!
I suppose it's just a matter of personal likes and dislikes. I personally like well-balanced SxS. If they are originals so much the better. To me bringing an old SxS back to life and using it in the field brings a sense of accomplishment.
To me, rough shooting with a "fowler" is like driving 10-penny nails with a 5-pound hammer. It could be done and efficiently, but it is a different experience using a 5-ounce tack hammer. Maybe for driven or pass shooting where there were plenty of opportunities I'd choose the fowler. Otherwise, I want a shotgun that fits and is meant to mount-swing-shoot. To me a fowler is designed to shoulder, ready, point and shoot. Again, a different experience.
Have a 42" flint fowler, 36" percussion fowler and several SXS "normal" percussion. Flint fowler throws the tightest pattern. Rabbit, squirrel turkeys - open choke/shorter barrels are fine. Tho' I have bobwhites, don't shoot them lately due to overage of predators. Suggest trying various guns on thrown clay pigeons to see what works best for you.
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andy52, You would fit in very well in our far northern Ca. Rhondys. Many of us pride ourselves in shooting the original ML SxS and also the early cartridge SxS. At the shotgun events at least a good third are early SxS.
Doc,
