Fowler/Trade Gun or Proper Shotgun?

[biliff]

For a good read try Bob Brister's Shotgunning: The Art and the Science.
He actually did real world testing across all the common US gauges to include firing at a long towed trailer at various ranges and speeds to study the effects of shot stringing. Also tested shot hardness, wads, etc.. Side note: he also proved he had a solid marriage as his wife drove the trailer.

The book is a bit dated now and didn't include non-toxic shot but the basics for lead are still there.

 

[Nuthatch]

And here I thought I was asking a rather easy question. Here we are, almost discussing religion...

Here's what I want to do -- take small game, birds, turkeys etc. with my smoothbore (.50). All hunting is with bismuth (non-toxic) shot out here. Gripe, grumble, moan, "you need to move"... I'm not leaving. It is what it is. I don't want to debate or complain about it. I just need to find something that works.

Here's what I've done -- played with cards, wads, etc. #8 lead dive weight shot was easy-peasy. 3/4 oz was perfect. Any combination of anything worked well. Hard to screw it up. But #6 bismuth was a PITA. Couldn't get it to pattern well with anything. Finally got 40 gr 2F Pyrodex & 1oz shot to pattern well IF and ONLY IF I used a plastic sabot over the shot. Why? Dunno. Just worked well on paper. Not great but okay. Fast forward to last weekend and it was, at best, a crippling load. No bueno. Looking forward to turkey season, I'd feel more comfortable with a patched (bismuth) ball than that loading of #6. No way I'm risking a turkey on a loading that couldn't even bring down a coot at 25 yards sitting still for me.

So it has me wondering if I just need to quit pressing the .50 into a service it was never meant to do & pick up a dedicated shot slinger. That would be disappointing. But if that's where I need to go, then I can do that. And, if so, then what would be a good choice? I can still use that .50 smoothbore as a ball shooter where or when it's shotgun only. But I'd much rather borrow from the experience of others & make what I have work. Seems there ought to be a way.

Brittsmoothy -- I can't be so picky with my powder choices out here. It's Pyrodex 2F or homebrew that's probably 2-3F somewhere, though quite a bit less dense (needs about 40% more volume). Powder availability is a whole different discussion. Kind of a dead end there in my case.

 

[megasupermagnum]

To the contrary, I always ask for evidence to sweeping comments, assumptions and statements of fact but very little if any appear!
Like you very own words regarding shotgun barrel chokes. You said they do not lengthen a shot column as the shot passes through it.
Any evidence?

Yes, there's tons of evidence, and I've given you multiple sources before. A good one is Shotgunning by Bob Brister. The following picture was taken by Ed Lowry of Olin-Winchester I don't know how many decades ago. A full choke creates a longer cloud to begin with, but you can see that by only 18 feet from the muzzle the shot string is shorter than the cylinder choke.



This next article, also by Ed Lowry is a good one for quantifying the effect of shot string. He put it in a table form, and thus uses pattern percentage, but the principle is the same. With muzzleloaders we have the ability to improve patterns with a cylinder bore a lot more than with a cartridge gun, but we are never going to see those 80%+ percentages without choke. If this still isn't enough, there is an article by Federal premium where they use high speed photos to measure shot string length, however, they do not deal with choke directly.

https://randywakeman.com/lowryshotstring.pdf
https://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/hunting/2013/08/truth-about-shogun-ammo/

 

[Britsmoothy]

Yes, there's tons of evidence, and I've given you multiple sources before. A good one is Shotgunning by Bob Brister. The following picture was taken by Ed Lowry of Olin-Winchester I don't know how many decades ago. A full choke creates a longer cloud to begin with, but you can see that by only 18 feet from the muzzle the shot string is shorter than the cylinder choke.

I'm sorry but errm that ain't what I see in the picture you supplied, I clearly see an elongated column through choke compared to the cylinders example. Man I must be real dumb.

So to recap, the general consensus (not mine) is that larger bores are better because the shot does not get as damaged due to a shorter column and especially if one uses a so called " cushion" wad.
But no one cares one hoot about the poor pellets being rammed through a full choke at maximum velocity!
Where is the wonderful cushion wad then . Utter nonsense!

 

[Britsmoothy]

And here I thought I was asking a rather easy question. Here we are, almost discussing religion...

Here's what I want to do -- take small game, birds, turkeys etc. with my smoothbore (.50). All hunting is with bismuth (non-toxic) shot out here. Gripe, grumble, moan, "you need to move"... I'm not leaving. It is what it is. I don't want to debate or complain about it. I just need to find something that works.

Here's what I've done -- played with cards, wads, etc. #8 lead dive weight shot was easy-peasy. 3/4 oz was perfect. Any combination of anything worked well. Hard to screw it up. But #6 bismuth was a PITA. Couldn't get it to pattern well with anything. Finally got 40 gr 2F Pyrodex & 1oz shot to pattern well IF and ONLY IF I used a plastic sabot over the shot. Why? Dunno. Just worked well on paper. Not great but okay. Fast forward to last weekend and it was, at best, a crippling load. No bueno. Looking forward to turkey season, I'd feel more comfortable with a patched (bismuth) ball than that loading of #6. No way I'm risking a turkey on a loading that couldn't even bring down a coot at 25 yards sitting still for me.

So it has me wondering if I just need to quit pressing the .50 into a service it was never meant to do & pick up a dedicated shot slinger. That would be disappointing. But if that's where I need to go, then I can do that. And, if so, then what would be a good choice? I can still use that .50 smoothbore as a ball shooter where or when it's shotgun only. But I'd much rather borrow from the experience of others & make what I have work. Seems there ought to be a way.

Brittsmoothy -- I can't be so picky with my powder choices out here. It's Pyrodex 2F or homebrew that's probably 2-3F somewhere, though quite a bit less dense (needs about 40% more volume). Powder availability is a whole different discussion. Kind of a dead end there in my case.

I feel your pain and you have supported my long held belief that purely seeking a good looking pattern alone is also no good! To get your good pattern there is no velocity worth a hoot!
If you can only get 2f and thus tailoring a nice looking pattern around that powder your in fact inadvertently treating the symptom!
It is developing to much pressure near the muzzle. Hence why throttling it back improves things.
I am glad you have not shyed away from increasing the loads beyond what would cause incontinence in some here but I urge you to bring the powder up to.
If I can do it so can your .50.

 

[Nuthatch]

I feel your pain and you have supported my long held belief that purely seeking a good looking pattern alone is also no good! To get your good pattern there is no velocity worth a hoot!
If you can only get 2f and thus tailoring a nice looking pattern around that powder your in fact inadvertently treating the symptom!
It is developing to much pressure near the muzzle. Hence why throttling it back improves things.
I am glad you have not shyed away from increasing the loads beyond what would cause incontinence in some here but I urge you to bring the powder up to.
If I can do it so can your .50.
View attachment 116140

Well, I'm in need of some further education here. Why does 2F produce a different pressure at the muzzle than 3F? Is the idea that the 3F is fully burnt up and slowing down at the muzzle vs the 2F still heating up?

 

[Britsmoothy]

Well, I'm in need of some further education here. Why does 2F produce a different pressure at the muzzle than 3F? Is the idea that the 3F is fully burnt up and slowing down at the muzzle vs the 2F still heating up?

No it is not fully burnt up near the muzzle but it is more spent. The courser stuff is still yielding or being consumed nearer the muzzle. Producing high volumes of gas.
We want high pressure from the get go, not when's nearly gone!

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

guys, let's face it, you could tell him the sky appears blue, provide empirical and anecdotal evidence, plus a trail of logic so plain a blind mule could follow it; and he'd still say the sky looks purple, because he's been saying it for years and it "works" for him lol

going from 20 bore (.615") down to roughly a full choke (.600") means there's only 0.0075" of difference on each side of the shot column between the bore and the choke... depending on how long the cone is leading to the parallel section of the choke, it can be a sub degree angle to get it down to that. Shoot, there are a lot of bores off center more than .015" lol. Chokes do slightly deform some shot, but not nearly as much as having the shot column smash itself up upon firing without anything to make the column move more as a unit. The difference is also that a choke offers some benefits... not cushioning the shot... not so much. They were using wadding under and over the shot in the past as well, back before cards were even a thing, there's a reason the idea has stuck around and has been validated so many times...

On powder, weight for weight, all BP of a particular formulation will produce the same amount of gas. Since BP burns on the outside of the granules, the larger the granules, the longer it takes for them to be consumed. Producing gas over a longer period of time provides more push on the payload, and you can achieve higher velocities with it, in addition to lowering your breech pressures (which allows you to load slightly more large granule powder than fine and keep your pressures the same). In modern terms, it's like comparing RedDot to Herco, only faster because BP is an explosive. As long as all of your powder converts to gas (as much as it is capable) before the payload exits the bore, you are being efficient. High breech pressures do not automatically equal consistency or velocity... they just mean, wait for it... higher breech pressures (which isn't necessary in a shotgun, since you aren't trying to upset a bullet into rifling)(I will say nothing of more shot deformation, resulting from a more violent acceleration... we've beat that dead horse into glue at this point) . Shoot what powder you can get, tailor a load to that, and don't worry about it a whole lot.

 

[rich pierce]

Most folks don’t try to use a .50 smoothbore for turkey.

 

[Nuthatch]

Most folks don’t try to use a .50 smoothbore for turkey.

Most folks wouldn't use a stickbow or air rifle either. Call me nutty.

 

[Bullit]

I'm sorry but errm that ain't what I see in the picture you supplied, I clearly see an elongated column through choke compared to the cylinders example. Man I must be real dumb.

So to recap, the general consensus (not mine) is that larger bores are better because the shot does not get as damaged due to a shorter column and especially if one uses a so called " cushion" wad.
But no one cares one hoot about the poor pellets being rammed through a full choke at maximum velocity!
Where is the wonderful cushion wad then . Utter nonsense!

Brit, the shot string in the pic is shorter in the full choke from point A to B than the OC but also much less dense.

 

[Bullit]

Brit, the shot string in the pic is shorter in the full choke from point A to B than the OC but also much less dense.

Less dense in the OC.

 

[Bullit]

I think that's the point he's trying to make Brit. That the actual length is longer in the OC. That doesn't necessarily make it any better. It just depends on the application.

 

[Brokennock]

Hmmm, I wonder if we dig through this forum for a bunch of photos of game successfully taken with a smoothbore, who will we find most often? @Britsmoothy or the crew who likes to bash him because they have a bunch of technical theory
The proof is in the pudding.
As for someone's pompous statement about telling Britsmoothy the sky is blue, you're reasoning sounds just like all the usual claptrap we get from your crowd about,,,,, how great cushion wads are, why you can only use certain grades of powder for certain size bores, and every other one of that crowd's "because that's the way we've always done it" arguments.
Most of come off as a bunch of blowhards who thump your chests and huff and puff, your egos are too fragile to even consider anything or anyone else, and when many of you speak the room starts to smell like a barn.

Something either works or it doesn't. I've seen lots of proof that what at least one person is saying here works. A bunch of the rest of you,,,, not so much.

 

[megasupermagnum]

I'm not bashing Britsmoothy, I like the guy a lot. The worst part is he is just like me, stubborn as a mule. He has valid views on how to shoot a muzzleloader. I don't think it's wrong that he doesn't use cushion wads, I don't use them either. I don't use 4Fg powder, but he is correct in that it generally produces higher velocity than 3Fg or coarser. This can be proven with a chronograph. The theories behind why he chooses these things are opinion.

What is not opinion is that a full choke produces a shorter shot string than a cylinder bore. I produced a gosh dang picture straight from one of the most knowledgeable shotgun ammo experts to ever live, and if seeing it first hand with your own eyes ain't enough, then nothing is.

To be crystal clear, I like bigger shotgun bores for two reasons. #1 a heavier gun is easier to shoot. #2 is the larger the bore, the more you can shoot at the same pressure. You might be just fine running heavy loads in smaller bores, you are free to do as you please. I'm not willing to do that myself.

 

[GoodRabbitPilgrim]

Hmmm, I wonder if we dig through this forum for a bunch of photos of game successfully taken with a smoothbore, who will we find most often?

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Brokennock]

I'm not bashing Britsmoothy, I like the guy a lot. The worst part is he is just like me, stubborn as a mule. He has valid views on how to shoot a muzzleloader. I don't think it's wrong that he doesn't use cushion wads, I don't use them either. I don't use 4Fg powder, but he is correct in that it generally produces higher velocity than 3Fg or coarser. This can be proven with a chronograph. The theories behind why he chooses these things are opinion.

What is not opinion is that a full choke produces a shorter shot string than a cylinder bore. I produced a gosh dang picture straight from one of the most knowledgeable shotgun ammo experts to ever live, and if seeing it first hand with your own eyes ain't enough, then nothing is.

To be crystal clear, I like bigger shotgun bores for two reasons. #1 a heavier gun is easier to shoot. #2 is the larger the bore, the more you can shoot at the same pressure. You might be just fine running heavy loads in smaller bores, you are free to do as you please. I'm not willing to do that myself.

Not fighting with you here, but, I don't see that cylnder choke string picture as being any longer than the other either.
Not for any practical application. Are there a couple pellets difference? Yes. A few pellets are out ahead and a few are starting to struggle behind, but not many. The bulk of the shot is in the same length string in both photos to my eye.
I'm too lazy to enlarge the photos and count them.

"Experts" and acclaimed gurus, aren't always right. And technical/lab/engineering results and successes dint always pan out in the real world.

 

[megasupermagnum]

You've gotta be kidding me. The shot string of the full choke is shorter than the shot string of the cylinder bore, plain as night and day, and that's at 18 feet. The "bulk" of the shot from the full choke is half the length of the bulk of the shot from the cylinder bore. You guys are acting like this is new information. This has been proven decade after decade by multiple people. There's pictures, targets, and high speed video of this. I've already spoon fed you undeniable proof from an expert. What more could you possibly want?

 

[Brokennock]

The "bulk" of the shot from the full choke is half the length of the bulk of the shot from the cylinder bore.

It's not. Look again. The shot in the cylinder bore shot spring is spread thinner up and down, but the leading and trailing edges of the shot loads are not that much different. Certainly not a 50% difference.

 

[megasupermagnum]

It's not. Look again. The shot in the cylinder bore shot spring is spread thinner up and down, but the leading and trailing edges of the shot loads are not that much different. Certainly not a 50% difference.

Is the cylinder bore shot string longer than the full choke shot string? Yes or no!