Fowler/Trade Gun or Proper Shotgun?

[Brokennock]

You seriously are that verklempt over, maybe, 10 pellets out of that whole load?
10 pellets of a pattern that won't be repeatable on the next shot, or the shot after that.

Okay.

 

[megasupermagnum]

No, I'm verklempt over the fact that you are flat out denying what is smacking you right in the face, can't even answer a yes or no question. I'm done here. I've had arguments with 5 year olds that made more sense than this. I'm leaving now to go on a hunting trip. Maybe when I get back you will realize how ridiculous you are being.

 

[Brokennock]

No, I'm verklempt over the fact that you are flat out denying what is smacking you right in the face, can't even answer a yes or no question. I'm done here. I've had arguments with 5 year olds that made more sense than this. I'm leaving now to go on a hunting trip. Maybe when I get back you will realize how ridiculous you are being.

I'm leaving now to go on a hunting trip.

Please. "Don't go away mad,,,, just,,, go away."

 

[DuncNZ]

Most of the deformation of lead pellets takes place when they rub up against the barrel . When plastic wads were developed shooters found their guns shot tighter patterns . Winchester produced wads with short petals for skeet shooters . I had a Rem trap barrel which shot nice even tight patterns with a wad with long petals and the same load shot a full foot wider with the skeet wads , so I used loads with the skeet wad for my first shot and the normal wad for the second .
I use cushion wads in my ml loads because they are lubed which helps to keep the barrel from fouling up too much as I do not have time to clean between shots when shooting birds , also a tight cushion wad can help stop the load in the second barrel from moving forward when the first is fired .
I helped sponsor a young lady with her doctoral thesis on where all the pellets a load in a pattern went when fired , ie where the ones touching the wad , and so on all the way up the load column ended up . Unfortunately I cant find my copy of her thesis at the moment . I'll tell more when I find it .

 

[Britsmoothy]

In the photograph the first still clearly shows that the shot column has been lengthened.
The blowhards say that long shot columns result in so much pellet damage that anyone using anything other than their suggestion is a dang fool!
Not so, why? Because the same blowhards don't seem to mind having their precious shot rammed at full velocity through a choke.
Then the dang idiots try and mitigate the point by saying its only a slight constriction.
Wrong, it don't feel slight to the shot! How do I know? Because I observe! I can observe in my choked guns heavy lead deposits from the compression forces on the lead in the choke!
So blowhards, you keep on blowing. I'll stick to practical lessons and observations in the field.

 

[DuncNZ]

One important function of a choke is control the way the wad influences the pattern/ shot string
,The wad traveling with the shot has a major influence on the pattern and shot string , the choke slows the wad a certain amount depending on constriction, changing its influence on the pattern .
A wad traveling with the shot in a cylinder barrel ,where it is not pulled back by any constriction, tends to open the pattern ,.
A full choke pulls the wad away from the shot so that it does not interfere with the shot string. certainly the choke constriction influences the pattern as well .Shot tends to flow like water , the tighter you squeeze a hose the further it squirts , the tighter you squeeze the shot the further it shoots
I suggest the fact that you use cards and not wads means the cards have very little influence on the pattern .
The harder the shot the tighter the pattern , this is why steel shot needs more open chokes than lead shot and modern chokes have two constrictions written on them ,
The higher the velocity of the load the more open the pattern .
Steel shot is less efficient than lead therefore larger loads are needed hence the 3½" shot shells .
,If you have trouble with leading in your barrels I suggest you try harder shot , or is that not historically correct .

 

[Britsmoothy]

.45 smoothbore.
IIRC. 3/4oz 7.5shot.
55gns (or there abouts) fine powder, 3f or smaller.
Three thin OS cards for a wad.
Birds under thirty yards.
Not all dead in the air but most were.

 

[Britsmoothy]

A wad traveling with the shot in a cylinder barrel ,where it is not pulled back by any constriction, tends to open the pattern ,.
A full choke pulls the wad away from the shot so that it does not interfere with the shot string. certainly the choke constriction influences the pattern as well .Shot tends to flow like water , the tighter you squeeze a hose the further it squirts , the tighter you squeeze the shot the further it shoots

Here we go again!
Are really really suggesting that a wad with all that pressure behind it is actually slowed down by the choke?
Dear Lord, give me the strength.......

 

[Britsmoothy]

,If you have trouble with leading in your barrels I suggest you try harder shot , or is that not historically correct .

Who are you referring to?
I don't recall anyone in this thread so far asking for help with leading!

 

[Britsmoothy]

guys, let's face it, you could tell him the sky appears blue, provide empirical and anecdotal evidence, plus a trail of logic so plain a blind mule could follow it; and he'd still say the sky looks purple, because he's been saying it for years and it "works" for him lol

You have not answered my question.
How much time is it during firing that makes the difference between having deformed shot and or non deformed shot? How much time does a so called cushion wad delay the force applied to the shot?
You don't know Mr blue-sky do you.
Does that mean therefore you are assuming? Theorising?

 

[stikshooter]

Sure glad we got that settled ! /Ed

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

You have not answered my question.
How much time is it during firing that makes the difference between having deformed shot and or non deformed shot? How much time does a so called cushion wad delay the force applied to the shot?
You don't know Mr blue-sky do you.
Does that mean therefore you are assuming? Theorising?

You seem to think that it completely eliminates it, but it doesn't, it just reduces it. Slowing down the initial movement of the rear of the shot column even a lite bit helps.

It has become very clear in the course of this thread that you are an unreasonable person. Despite about 3/4 of this thread being used to rectify the grossly flawed understanding of how firearms works that you initially proposed, to include empirical evidence and photographic evidence, not to mention logic-based explanations; you refuse to acknowledge that your theories may not be correct.

Refusal to acknowledge evidence and logic (and the potential falability of theories) indicates unreasonableness, unreasonable people drive conversations to absurdity, absurd conversations are pointless, pointless conversations are a waste of energy (and server space).

Good day, gentlemen.

 

[Brokennock]

You have not answered my question.
How much time is it during firing that makes the difference between having deformed shot and or non deformed shot? How much time does a so called cushion wad delay the force applied to the shot?
You don't know Mr blue-sky do you.
Does that mean therefore you are assuming? Theorising?

Of course, Mr. Bluesky is also apparently ignorant of the fact that the sky isn't blue.
It is an illusion created by the reflection of our oceans off the atmosphere. But then, many folks have great faith in illusions.

 

[rich pierce]

Steph Curry can make 3 point shots from close to mid court. All he needs to do is show the stat sheet or video clips to prove to everyone that making 3 pointers from close to mid court is easy. So, Average Joe pumps up his ball and goes to half court and starts heaving. Unfortunately he cannot even heave that far, let alone accurately.
All analogies break down eventually but success of one person with one approach does not prove much except that said person is expert. It shows it can be done. By them. And it certainly does not prove that another technique would not give superior results- even for them.

 

[Newtire]

I took some shots at a few coots at the farther end of my range (25 yards) with my .50 smoothbore. 45 gr. powder, 1 oz #6 Bismuth shot.

I think that where your gun patterns/how the gun fits and where it points are certainly of #1 importance. Having said that, I think that an ounce of shot and 45 grains of powder is pretty far from a “square load”/equal volume powder and shot.

I have never tried something as small as a .50 loaded with shot and such a small charge of black at game shooting. Seems like that would make for a pretty long shot column. However, if that patterns well and to point of aim, it might just do the job?.

Turner Kirkland said that if his load would penetrate through one side of a soup can at the range he was shooting, he deemed it good enough.

I hunted doves over decoys and at the range we were shooting at, my 14 gauge loaded with an ounce of #7s (#7 I bought at Sportsman’s Warehouse) was working well. I used just one hard .135” nitro card over the powder, no cushion, the lead shot and 2-thin over shot cards on top. It was bringing them down real well.

If I was you, I’d go for a larger bore size and make certain that it hits where you point it. Wounding game is something we do not want to do. It is our responsibility to use something big enough to kill what we hit without causing a lot of suffering on the part of the game being shot. I believe that #7 is about perfect for those tough ring necked Eurasian doves as I seemed to be just dusting them with #7-1/2s so I settled on #7. So, you have to do a little patterning and testing for penetration before you can say it’s a good gun and load.

Nothing wrong with having an extra gun for shotgun work but if you want to have just one gun for both shot and ball work, try using a little larger gun.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

andy52, You would fit in very well in our far northern Ca. Rhondys. Many of us pride ourselves in shooting the original ML SxS and also the early cartridge SxS. At the shotgun events at least a good third are early SxS.
Doc,

 

[Britsmoothy]

Na, he needs to go smaller, look.

.45" smoothbore.
Plenty powder, plenty shot.
Plenty bang, Plenty in bag.
Old Indian saying

 

[GREENSWLDE]

andy52, You would fit in very well in our far northern Ca. Rhondys. Many of us pride ourselves in shooting the original ML SxS and also the early cartridge SxS. At the shotgun events at least a good third are early SxS.
Doc,

Doc, You have brougt the subget of orginals to the front.There should be a limit on modern repro's as to the topics in THe MUZZLE LOADERS FORUM. I have followed of years before I became envoled as a Supporter.
I enjoyed the banter refering to pre USA foundation years to early Post..
Choke boring was we believe experimented by Mr.Pape of New Castle upon Tyne in the early days of fall apart guns for live pigeon shooting in 186+. There may have been experiments in other parts of the world.
If you want to talk chokes what ever type then maybe MML's is the place you should be. For the rest of us get out your original or reprint of "Instrutions to Young Sportsmen" (Hawker editions 1 to 28) or his Diaries and any of Sir Ralphe Payne Gallway's writings on Wild Fowling and other editions of "The BADMINTON LIBURY" covering Shooting. The Game Book at Bradegate Park for 1864 is very interesting. I suppose I am more than lucky to shoot my Flint and Cap guns on what remains of the Old Estate Shoot ..OLD DOG..

 

[Rudyard]

'Old Dog' dosn't seem to like Chokes I tend to agree they are not generally a ML thing though Im'e sure someone will find a raft of early experimenters with chokes . But I regard them as just making harder to load. But I wouldn't take them out of any old BL gun barrel I used up . For what shot gunning I do I just stay with a battery of old or got up shotguns. ( Most have more relief bored by design) .The very reverse of chokes. Damascus or Twist or plain Scelp. If well wrought with nice engraving & pretty wood,( The important qualities !) is what I look for . .
Rudyard

 

[Ed Pilkington]

Fun stuff brothers