French Wheellocks

[Flint62Smoothie]

Unlike other wheellocks, the spring is not mounted to the lockplate itself, but is somehow suspended within the recesses of the stock.

I can now see how the strirrup attaches to the ‘curl’ on the spring … but does the trigger go through the spring itself?

 

[Rudyard]

No its goes one side of the M spring. I only made one ' after' the' Boys gun 'of Louis the 13th only made bigger & a 54 cal I think . DunkNZ now has it .The bit I found tricky was getting the side plate 'Bridle pin 'hole right I had no good photoe but winged it and got away with it ,made it like a Dolfin since he was then Dua Fahn ' Prince' if that's how its spelt .Good gun nut was Louis liked to get his hands dirty & didn't go for fancy . He would love these forums .I bet.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Thanks Rudyard! I bet the ‘Dauphin’ would love it here too … oh, and his wife would be the ‘Dauphine’.

 

[TobJohn]

I cam across this French (presuming sporting) carbine in the Royal Armouries, that shows the separate spring in relation to the lock:
Wheellock muzzle-loading carbine For the Duc de Montmorency. - Royal Armouries collections

It gives a decent view of what Rudyard was saying, because you can see (even if its a side profile image) the sear protruding past the spring.

 

[EBrown]

I believe in one of these treads someone mentioned a vice or clamp to compress the spring in these French style wheellocks. Does anybody know if such a tool existed? And how it might look I’m having trouble installing the spring to the chain using just using hand pressure. Granted it is a low grade repro.

 

[TobJohn]

Does the side plate have a functional purpose, besides holding the back of the spindle? I was looking through the online collection of the Musée de l'Armé, and it seems to be a universal feature for French wheellocks.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

For hanging the strirrup to the spring, I would position the wheels so the stirrup is placed as low as it can go on the lock plate.

Then put a dowel a sliver of wood vertical in a vice and I would push down on the stock to compress the spring just outside the ‘curl’ at the hanger end to compress the spring while you install the lock plate and then slip the stirrup into the hook or curl.

… at least not owning one … that is what I would try myself …

 

[EBrown]

Does the side plate have a functional purpose, besides holding the back of the spindle? I was looking through the online collection of the Musée de l'Armé, and it seems to be a universal feature for French wheellocks.

It does not seem to have any purpose other than holding the spindle. Mine is a Belgium repro so …

 

[TobJohn]

After looking at some more examples of French wheellocks, I am confused why this method was used for well over a hundred years. It seems to be more labor intensive, with no benefit, and even the possible detriment of weakening the stock. Is there an advantage that I am missing?

https://basedescollections.musee-ar...&queryId=3d6df2c3-1d4a-4ef5-a9f8-caf0468588f7

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Me thinks you answered your own question ... they're French!

Recall most of the battles between England and France, and with the rest of other European countries was - at its root - a battle between the Catholic and the Protestant religion. A lot of things can happen when religion becomes the 'religion', like:

"Sacre Blue, we ... ehhhhhhhhh, cannot justa copy the wheellock assemblie of the heathen German or Anglais!"

But to be serious, it was all about 'style'. I'll ask Brian Anderson the same question, to get his input. But there is something ODD when you place the alleged lock assembly photo over the carbine photo ...

• Like why is the dog hung on the OUTSIDE of the lock plate on the complete arm, but shows on the BACKSIDE of the lock?
• In the lock photo, there is a 'dip' in the pan, so if that is clearance to the touch hole, do that mean that THAT side should bear against the barrel?
• The lock plate also appears very rough compared to the lock plate on the carbine
• Or is the lock assembly shown from a left-handed French wheelie?

Darn Frenchies ... I sure can't fathom those pictures ...

 

[earlwb]

After looking at some more examples of French wheellocks, I am confused why this method was used for well over a hundred years. It seems to be more labor intensive, with no benefit, and even the possible detriment of weakening the stock. Is there an advantage that I am missing?
View attachment 220479
View attachment 220480
https://basedescollections.musee-ar...&queryId=3d6df2c3-1d4a-4ef5-a9f8-caf0468588f7

I think at first it was a more reliable ignition system over the flintlocks at that time. You had a veritable shower of sparks to ignite the powder with. Plus it was a better ignition system over the matchlock. You didn’t need to have a lit match fuse smouldering. It may have been more accurate for aiming over the matchlock too.

 

[TobJohn]

I think at first it was a more reliable ignition system over the flintlocks at that time. You had a veritable shower of sparks to ignite the powder with. Plus it was a better ignition system over the matchlock. You didn’t need to have a lit match fuse smouldering. It may have been more accurate for aiming over the matchlock too.

I had meant the French method of having a separate mainspring in the stock, opposed to the lock plate.

 

[TobJohn]

• Like why is the dog hung on the OUTSIDE of the lock plate on the complete arm, but shows on the BACKSIDE of the lock?
• In the lock photo, there is a 'dip' in the pan, so if that is clearance to the touch hole, do that mean that THAT side should bear against the barrel?
• The lock plate also appears very rough compared to the lock plate on the carbine
• Or is the lock assembly shown from a left-handed French wheelie?

Darn Frenchies ... I sure can't fathom those pictures ...

View attachment 220482

I’m 90% sure the lock image was reversed by the museum. The gun is one of the oldest remaining, so some amount of weirdness makes sense.

More images and the lock at the correct orientation:
A Very Early Wheellock Arquebus, ca. 1530, in the Musée de l'Armée, Paris - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

 

[Sam squanch]

It’s a bigger mainspring, with more strength, so it would be sure fire.

 

[earlwb]

I had meant the French method of having a separate mainspring in the stock, opposed to the lock plate.

Yeah the not invented here mentality running rampant. The French still do that today too.

 

[hectorintca]

After looking at some more examples of French wheellocks, I am confused why this method was used for well over a hundred years. It seems to be more labor intensive, with no benefit, and even the possible detriment of weakening the stock. Is there an advantage that I am missing?
View attachment 220479
View attachment 220480
https://basedescollections.musee-ar...&queryId=3d6df2c3-1d4a-4ef5-a9f8-caf0468588f7

Sir;
Any idea what is the purpose of the ball on the butstock?
Thank you,
Hector

 

[TobJohn]

Sir;
Any idea what is the purpose of the ball on the butstock?
Thank you,
Hector

I’m just some nerdy guy in his 20s, no need for sir.

You rest the gun on it while loading, so you don’t damage the stock. These guns often have a decorative butt plate.

 

[Sam squanch]

it’s a cheek stock, not held against the shoulder. So the ball is to protect the butt while loading, if it is engraved. I think!

 

[Tyler L]

The anti-French sentiment in this thread is appalling! For shame!



I'm kidding, of course. My last name traces back to 16th century northern France.

 

[Brian Anderson]

Thank you all for the pictures! they have answered all my questions but one. what keeps the chain from jumping out of the hook when it is fired? l would guess that function is filled by the plate on the underside (the pistol photos show an elaborate two piece plate surrounding the base of the trigger guard and the trigger but do not show the plate itself)
again thanks for the photos and input.