Getting the Walker tuned up

[borne2fly]

I would have preferred the shim fitting the bottom completely, but as it is, it's just around the outer edge.

My Walker arbor bore also has that "angled floor". It appears to be the same angle as the nose of a standard jobber drill bit, which is probably what was use to make the hole in the first place. Nothing fancy, that's for sure. I never felt comfortable with shims that only had edge/perimeter contact, so I make my shims conical on one side, same angle as the floor, to maximize the contact area. And small hole through the center allows an easy way to pick it out if needed.

 

[borne2fly]

..... I'm not crazy about that much taper in the arbor bore, but nothing I can do about it. I also don't care for the angled floor of the bore. I would have preferred the shim fitting the bottom completely, but as it is, it's just around the outer edge.

My Walker also has this “angled floor”. It appears to be the same angle as the nose of a standard jobber drill bit, which is probably what was used to make that hole in the first place (nothing fancy, that's for sure). I never felt comfortable with a shim that only made perimeter contact, so my shims are conical on one side with the same cone angle as the floor … to maximize the contact area. A small hole goes through the center for a hook to pull it out if needed.

 

[M. De Land]

Wonder why mine and my customers wedges don't? It's a mystery . . .


Round and round and round . . .

Mike

I was referring to Walker wedges so we'll see on mine, set up with solid end arbor end fit and factory wedge. The originals were apparently fired with full loads routinely and it looks like used a lot of wedges from what the Army was saying. Modern steel should fare much better so we'll see.
This should be interesting to see how well factory wedges hold up under as close as I can make same conditions as original guns.

 

[M. De Land]

This is exactly where you are making poor judgment. In this application of barrel retention on an open top Colt, Samuel had it correct.
Arbor, barrel, and barrel location foot against frame must make solid contact. All at the same time. For the wedge to hold properly it only needs pressure applying front and back. Defiantly not top to bottom which is counterproductive to the holding power of the wedge. If you feel you need to fit the wedge tight top to bottom to get it to hold, you are actually robbing the holding power of wedge from front to back which is the proper force. Your statement of " Snug wedge thickness fit in both barrel and arbor slots helps the lower lug pins support radial torque pressure as well as providing a friction load against backing out." Are you trying to kid me, do you have any idea of the shear strength of those 2 locating pins that are off center line of the bore? Please. Proper metal to metal contact/fitting and with a wedge that builds pressure and actually compresses the parts together with proper friction is all that is required.

Have you ever made, heat treated, installed and tested a wedge your self ? Never mind I know the answer ! Your great theories aside the wedges to this point anyway seem to work very well as fitted. I can't actually remember any gun part ever working better loose as opposed to well fit but then that's just my opinion.

 

[M. De Land]

Curious as to what you measure. The last Uberti 45 caliber bores I measured had bore diameters around .438” with groove diameters running around .458” (rifling was about .0095” deep) and their cylinder chambers .4495”/.4500” diameter. A lot of windage in their bores between cylinder and groove diameter if you are looking for accuracy, at least what I found. Probably too much detail to discuss until we can chase down arbor length and wedge fit one more time.

I used plug gauges, cerosafe metal for bore groove cast, 1" mic, 6" caliper and Powley gauge for uneven rifling diameter measurement. The plug gauges measure bore dia; bore level (checking for high spots) and barrel/cylinder alignment.
The cerosafe cast yields exact groove OD after one hour of set up. The Powely gauge works like a Tri-mic for accurate groove diameter measurement of odd numbered rifling.

 

[M. De Land]

My Walker arbor bore also has that "angled floor". It appears to be the same angle as the nose of a standard jobber drill bit, which is probably what was use to make the hole in the first place. Nothing fancy, that's for sure. I never felt comfortable with shims that only had edge/perimeter contact, so I make my shims conical on one side, same angle as the floor, to maximize the contact area. And small hole through the center allows an easy way to pick it out if needed.

I'm quite certain the arbor well is reamed not just drilled as In mine there is a perimeter shelf at the end before the angular middle area. This is what I fit my plug to and feels very solid. Time will tell with the planned pounding from full power loads that the originals were subjected to.

 

[M. De Land]

Thanks for the response ! In one of the videos I watched Mike Belvue "SP" made a similar mod to the spring end and it did help but I noticed it still was not 100 percent as he continued firing. My thought was to drill a small hole through the lower end of the loading lever behind the latch spring leg and fit a piece of spring wire on a bit of a curve with a purchase curl on the end for easy retrieval. The bit of curve would secure it as a cross pin blocking the latch spring end from backing out of it's seat under recoil.
It can be made quite small but still would be pretty unsightly I think but probably not any more out of place than a Dragoon latch on the end of the pointed lever.
The other idea I had was to make a flat spring pin that would insert from the opening at the bottom where the spring latch purchase is and block it's back out from that position. Both would be in plain sight.

I wonder wither balls or bullets were the most used in Walkers in Texas ranger hands. I have read the Walkers came with a mold as issued so what ever the mold cast would probably provide a pretty good answer.
The testing should be done with both I suppose but would think the bullet used in them would be the better test of wedge strength.
Could be a double cavity mold I suppose casting both balls and bullets. Any one seen an original mold issued with the Walkers?

 

[M. De Land]

Wonder why mine and my customers wedges don't? It's a mystery . . .


Round and round and round . . .

Mike

You said yourself your customers generally do not shoot full power loads regularly as was done in the originals in Ranger hands.

 

[borne2fly]

I'm quite certain the arbor well is reamed not just drilled as In mine there is a perimeter shelf at the end before the angular middle area. This is what I fit my plug to and feels very solid. Time will tell with the planned pounding from full power loads that the originals were subjected to.

Could be. Reamers typically work the sides, not so much the ends. I took a cast of that hole to get the cone profile and have also noticed the small small flat around the perimeter you mentioned. Ive accidentally created such flats on drilled holes in the past by overdriving the reamer into the hole (I.e. “oops”). Yes, if that flat is big enough then I’d feel ok using a flat shim, and I have a Dragoon like that. On the Walker, though, that ledge is barely there. Seems to vary from part to part.

 

[Rich44]

Have you ever made, heat treated, installed and tested a wedge your self ? Never mind I know the answer !

As a retired journeyman tool and die maker with over 35 years experience, and a more or less complete machine shop in my basement (lathe, Milling Machine, Surface Grinder, and lots of Tooling) I suppose it was a easy guess for you to know that it is a piece of cake for me, so thanks for the compliment. I have machined and heat treated wedges and the Colt you see has a homemade wedge.

 

[45D]

You said yourself your customers generally do not shoot full power loads regularly as was done in the originals in Ranger hands.

I'm sorry, I tell my customers they CAN shoot full load trip7 full time in any of the revolvers.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

As a retired journeyman tool and die maker with over 35 years experience, and a more or less complete machine shop in my basement (lathe, Milling Machine, Surface Grinder, and lots of Tooling) I suppose it was a easy guess for you to know that it is a piece of cake for me, so thanks for the compliment. I have machined and heat treated wedges and the Colt you see has a homemade wedge.

Well then you should know what I have said is true about well fit parts ! The wedge thickness fits very well in height as well as width providing some friction against back out and barrel torque support. Why would that be hard for a tool and die man to understand? The photo should explain it very well.

 

[M. De Land]

I'm sorry, I tell my customers they CAN shoot full load trip7 full time in any of the revolvers.

Mike

Well then perhaps the factory wedge will hold up in my arbor end fit gun and I won't have to make a new one. Time and full load shooting should tell the truth !

 

[45D]

Well then perhaps the factory wedge will hold up in my arbor end fit gun and I won't have to make a new one. Time and full load shooting should tell the truth !

Yep, if you set it up correctly it should be fine.

Mike

 

[Rich44]

Well, I tried.

 

[M. De Land]

Trying to have the wedge tighten on both dimension's at the same time is not only hard to accomplish but also defeats the purpose of applying the pressure to hold the parts together as one piece. Which surface is really getting the pressure applied?

I fully realize some just do not get it.

Oh, I see the confusion, you think I fit the wedge thickness on a taper. I don't, I fit the thickness very slugly in parallel to the slots top and bottoms ! The idea is to help support the lug pins from bullet induced torque by removing any unnecessary wedge fit slack.
This snug parallel fit also provides friction to help prevent wedge back out on the other axis. I think this is why the new wedges seem to work better than factory in short arbor guns.

 

[M. De Land]

Yep, if you set it up correctly it should be fine.

Mike

What do you think of trying some 200 grain 45ACP bullets with a heeled base I use in my 1911 for the Walker ? They are short with a truncate nose and heeled base. They drop from my mold I think about .453 before lube sizing to ..451 if I remember correctly so the ..449 chamber throats are going to make a nice lead ring and good seal.
I may have to open the chamber mouths after some lengthy testing to see how the gun shoots as is with ball and bullet.
Holding the gun up at arms length one handed reminds me of lifting barbells in the gym.

 

[SDSmlf]

They drop from my mold I think about .453 before lube sizing to ..451 if I remember correctly so the ..499 chamber throats are going to make a nice lead ring and good seal.

I would not go smaller than .452”/.453” in a .449” chamber (guessing .499 is a typo) with heavier charges (50 grains plus) or you run the risk of the bullets moving off the powder and jamming things up. Not as big a PIA as locking up a centerfire cylinder, but still a PIA.

 

[M. De Land]

I would not go smaller than .452”/.453” in a .449” chamber (guessing .499 is a typo) with heavier charges (50 grains plus) or you run the risk of the bullets moving off the powder and jamming things up. Not as big a PIA as locking up a centerfire cylinder, but still a PIA.

Yeah, .449. They drop from my mold at .453 and I usually lube size them to .451 for the 1911. I think I can make them work with a wood or brass push rod having the same end shape as the bullet truncate to get them started to index under the loading rod . I'll give it a try anyway. .Here is a shot of the fit before sizing. Just barely enough factory port length I think to use these bullets. The end of the loading rod is cupped nicely so it should seat them straight with the truncate flat point nose.
These bullets are of wheel weights and when last checked were running about 12 BHN so are a might hard for black powder shooting. Guess we'll see, I think the gun will handle the pressure with BP alright though.
Yeah, probably need to reduce the load to 45-50 grains but with the grease groove filled I may not need a lube wad below.

 

[SDSmlf]

Yeah, .449. They drop from my mold at .453 and I usually lube size them to .451 for the 1911. I think I can make them work with a wood or brass push rod having the same end shape as the bullet truncate to index under the loading rod . I'll give it a try anyway. .Here is a shot of the fit before sizing. Just barely enough factory port length I think to use these bullets.

Maybe use an arbor/loading press with cylinder out of the gun. Typically what I did when I was shooting SASS. Ultimately the press concept carried over to my everyday percussion revolver shooting. If you go this route you will discover how silly and impractical your short arbor ‘gauge’ concept just may be.

If you want to load conicals without taking the cylinder off the gun, you will likely need to give the barrel a haircut to allow the bullet to fit. Starting to question just how much cap and ball shooting you have done, particularly with conicals. And after 14 or so pages arguing about ‘too much made of short arbors’….