Got one with my Cherokee tonight

[Tim Clark]

Jeep Cherokee, that is...

And this is hunting related, read down --

One big doe jumped the ditch from right to left right in front of me, not even a second to react, hit the brakes, patch of ice, downhill on a curve... deer piled up under the front driver's wheel and I had zero control. Shot across the road to the left in less time than it takes to say "boo," slammed into the embankment at road's edge doing at least 55mph, the Jeep popped up into the air and spun around counterclockwise, almost a rollover but the back end slammed into the embankment on the passenger's side and it came to rest almost 50 yards further downhill. The doe somehow ended up another 20 yards beyond that, still alive.

This was only about 3/4 mile from my home, 6:19 PM. Took the volunteer fire guys 20 minutes to go the 1.8 miles to reach me, the ambulance a few minutes more and the town police another few.

Main theme from all emergency respondents: "Hunters need to use whatever means at their disposal to get the herd down to reasonable numbers. If you don't have a muzzleloader, get one!" Well, that opened up conversations on several fronts, and in between the accident report questions and me almost passing out about a dozen or so times, we had some good old talking times we did...

On the way to the hospital in the ambulance, the two EMT's and I were discussing muzzleloading hunting, equipment, etc. One has a CVA caplock (wasn't sure the twist rate or model) and had a ton of questions, the other was planning on getting an in-l-ine but after talking he wants to get together with me and try out "a real one," in his words.

The good news - nothing broken or ruptured, as far as can be told so far. I would agree with that 100%. Also, I made a bunch of new muzzleloading hunter friends, all at once!

The bad news - I hurt B-A-D, ribs and left gut are making me woozy, left hand is messed up pretty bad, and the Jeep.... well, I'll know better in the morning. It looked surprisingly good from what I saw of it. Needs new headlights, grill, maybe radiator, and bumper. I had just rebuilt the front axle and swapped-in a newer rear with TracLock, as well as new starter and new radiator, new brakes, new windshield... too bad insurance companies don't care about that.

Great news - another convert to cap or flint, and the cops shot the deer, and one of the vol fire guys claimed it after I "graciously" declined to take it. As bad as things were, I was quite aware of his questions and hints about wanting it, and besides I had no idea if I'd be in any condition to do anything with it any time soon.

Point of all this being, that I didn't get enough hunting time in this past season; it's been gnawing at my guts that just maybe I would have shot that deer and prevented all this.

Well, at least that's what one of the guys joked about...

Anyone in my area, or anyone wanting to come here for hunting, you're more than welcome to hunt here next season. 92 acres of orchard surrounded by corn, soybean and hay fields, deep shale ravines, swamps, and large tracts of woods. ...oh, and the road, too... they seem to like that just as much as any other habitat!

 

[davy]

Tim sorry about the doe & your vehicle .. but glad you are not too badly banged up (according to you)! :thumbsup: Better keep a close eye on your condition amigo!

Some folks have gotten hurt bad in the past in animal/car accidents! :hmm:

Davy

 

[bob1961]

glad yer ok....55 mph on ice yer a brave one :shocked2: :v ...........bob

 

[Tim Clark]

Thanks, Davy and White Buffalo.

Actually, I had no idea the ice was there or anywhere. This has been a record-breaking warm winter here. It rained hard a large part of the day - in fact, we've had too much rain almost every day it seems for over a year - and then after sunset the temps got to about 26*, still quite warm for here. What water was in the voids on the road surface froze and --- you know the rest. Still, the Jeep has ABS, Timberline A/T's with less than 500 miles on them, it has always been fine, I've had it since what seems forever (it's a 1991 Laredo, 4.0 HO, AW4 automatic, NP242 SelecTrac transfer case, no rust which is amazing for these parts of the road-salt north), the thing that really caused the problem from start to finish was the deer. She wasn't small by any means, and when she went down under the front wheel it was almost like a lockup on the left front and that's what caused the 90* swerve to the left.

Again, thanks - it's about 12:30 AM right now, I wanted to get to bed a while ago but it feels like something inside got bruised, maybe, NOT a good feeling when I lay down, called the doc, said just keep an eye on things and call if they deteriorate, might be the spleen. um, sure, I can sleep just fine with that on my mind! :shocked2: :shocked2: :shocked2:

Well, I just hope the Jeep is salvageable, too. It's been one of my favorites. It has never let me down.

 

[Tim Clark]

p.s. - I suppose that in order to calculate how many foot pounds of energy hit that deer, I'd have to know the exact weight of the vehicle, with me in it... but, would I have to convert that into grains? hmmm, I wonder, would it be considered a conical, or not? And then there's the ballistic coefficient, right? And as for those charts that say you need x-amount of kinetic energy, well I tell ya what, that doe survived the terrible impact, and even though she would surely have died slowly some time later it didn't kill her quick. I'm grateful that the officer put her down quickly and cleanly. Nope, it was his service weapon, not BP. Point is, PRB would have been far more humane than the Jeep.

OK, all nonsense aside - I know that being broadsided by a jeep that has a lot of impact area is not the same as a pinpoint impact projectile, but still... y'know what I mean? Oh well. I'm going to try the bed again. 'nite.

 

[RC]

tim ,glad you be okay! although fer a couple weeks you may wonder what "okay" is..ow ow ow! too bad about the jeep too,hope ya can save her.. and the doe turned the jeep??? must'a been a wheely big deer.... :shake: still, hard to believe ya live in n.y. and seen a deer...i ain't seen one since 12/19....glad yer okay! :thumbsup: RC

 

[Tim Clark]

Hey, RC, we're not too far apart, I live just a couple miles east of the Village of Clinton, maybe 8 miles southwest of Utica. We have deer in excess here, what with perfect habitat, high carrying capacity of the land, and elitist-type anti-hunters outnumbering us around here by probably 50-1, probably more, the deer population is very high. And with that doe under the tire, with the brakes on, she was more of a wheel chock than a deer at the time.

Not too sore, but feeling pretty sick this morning. If not better by noon or so I'll give the doc another holler. With only one car now and three of us to get places, hoo boy it'll be a fun day. :youcrazy:

 

[RC]

is that in the CWD watch area...? can't picture the map...an 8 miles is too close to the city..eek!

 

[Tim Clark]

yeah, smack in the heart of CWD containment. I'm in the Town of Kirkland, in WMU 6-S. As for the city, it's like another world away. If you know Paris Hill (I SAID HILL, NOT HILTON!!! LOL!), that's the place. Anyhow, I think that may be another significant factor in the deer population explosion -- if given the choice of driving here to take deer with all the attending hassles of CWD inspection and precautions and fears, or driving even farther just to avoid that, I think that many hunters are avoiding it. Add to that this unbelievably mild winter (only had to plow the driveway once so far, at least a month ago! Usually it's several times a week, sometimes a few times a day!), and their survival rate is very high. I see that the lake effect snows are kicking in even as I write this, we're due for 16 inches or more by tomorrow evening, most of it coming overnight and during the day tomorrow. Not terrible at all, but with people so unused to driving in it, welll --- hopefully none end up like I did last night. And with lake effect, who knows - a mile either way can be a whole world of difference.

Seriously, though, they've been testing deer for two years now, at least for two hunting seasons, and other than the 2 or 3 that tested positive at the first sign of the outbreak 2 years ago, none have tested positive. They also told us to "go ahead and eat the meat, folks out west in areas with CWD for generations have been eating it with no sign of it affecting them in any way." One possible side effect is an uncontrollable urge to get in your car at night an go out looking for deer to hit - you just can't control the compulsion to go out and do it.

uh-oh..... :shocked2: :blah: :rotf:

that, and the twitches and such...

Anyhow, DEC told us to use up the nuisance permits that they issued for the orchard, but I haven't the stomach to shoot 'em out of season. Just doesn't set right. Besides me not having the time. Anyone else that wants to, feel free, I'll just have to give my brothers-in-law a call to get ahold of those extra permits, so give me at least a week of advance notice for that and also to clear whatever else might need to be done with DEC and local law enforcement. I have no problems, I live and hunt right here, but transporting is something I haven't had to deal with yet. Holler. Too many deer here and I can't get 'em all.

 

[bramble]

Tim,
glad you are ok. take it easy in the recovery.

as for your accident, a similar thing happened with a log truck here. the deer jammed in the front wheel well and that was all she wrote.

bramble

 

[RC]

gees tim, wish we had talked afore the season ended...we had 4 permits fer 6s....and didn't want to...actually couldn't fill them here..and i'm serious! aside from not seeing that many deer...i seen 18...during southern zone,hunted everyday but one...could've shot one...very very small one...i commend ya fer not wantin to "hunt out'a season,even with them nuisance permits..wish i'd known you were filled up with deer we'd atried to find some land to hunt down there..state land available? i have no problem with meat from there,beats no meat!i've been keepin track of that cwd thing...so far so good from what i hear.. okay hope ya feel better....and jeep ain't in bad shape.. take care RC

 

[shmrck1]

Tim,
Glad you are ok to tell the story :hatsoff:
snake-eyes

 

[Tim Clark]

Thanks, Bramble and Snake Eyes.

Hunting is open to all here, we just have to be careful and courteous because of the pickers here in the fall (apples pears and plums need to be picked!), and trespassers year-round. The pickers are mostly Mexicans on work visas (YES, they're all legal, and the few that I've gotten to know are friends), English is not a language they're familiar with. Some trespassers are just tree huggers, some are hunters (for shame!), some elitist envirnmentalist anti-hunters, some malicious kids (and adults), some vandals, some thieves, you know how it goes. Fortunately these past several years, the trespassers have been in the form of just regular people out to enjoy the beauty, and there's plenty of that to go around. It's sort of like the old Western movies, and I'm the one wearing the star, LOL! Almost no problems at all lately.

Seriously, as long as it does not take on "ZOO" proportions, hunting is open here. For about 6 or 7 years, I made the same standing offer to the traditional archery crowd I hang with that's a lot like this place and you guys, but in all those years, despite all the excitement and talk conveyed to me, only one person ever came and he was more than thrilled. He saw more deer on stand his first morning than he'd seen in all his hunting years put together, he said. I found one of last year's sheds that had 8 points on it. I gave that to my nephew, he was bug-eyed and speechless, and almost passed out when I told him that it was his for keeps. He needed both hands to hold it. We used to have only one monster buck, a HUGE 17-pointer, that we call "The Freak." He's only been seen at night the past 3 or 4 years but he's still around. Now, there are lots of big boys (and girls!) around. My next-door neighbor took the 2nd largest archery buck in NY history on his father-in-law's property less than 1/2 mile from here just a couple of years ago. Big 12-pointer, scored high. Huge body. He owns a liquor store in the village of Clinton, the head is on the back wall for anyone to see. Really a prize. But the thing is, there are now at least 5, 12-pointers I saw last year, and no, not any two were the same deer. A few 10's, LOTS of 8's ranging from little basket racks to bruisers. Big-bodied. Great habitat, REALLY great food (just ask the apple trees!), and almost no hunting pressure. We DO have a few nutty neighbors that shoot skeet around the perimeter of the property, and that spooks the deer just enough, and there is some hunting pressure in the area. Across the road, on one farm, the family(ies?) took 16 deer, and they knew that "others" (read: poachers, trespassers, and otherwise uninvited people) took at least another 10 or more. They allow the hunting and undertook this years heavy hunting because they're experiencing crop damage, too. Theirs is a dairy farm. And still, we are crawling with deer.

Since I've given up on any takers from the bow hunting crowd, I'll do two things...

1. Extend the offer to you guys, and

2. Modify the rules... including but not limited to:

A) Muzzleloader or bow only. If hunting regular gun season, rifle is allowed here, but with more guns to worry about I'd kind of prefer no centerfire rifles or shotgun/slug guns.

B) I CANNOT provide lodging or accomodations. There are "facilities" on the property, as required by labor laws, but keep in mind that those are agricultural labor laws, State of New York, and at that time of year it'll be limited to the outhouse down in the back of the property. Tents are ok, just use good manners and common sense. There are two streams and a pond. There are motels not too far away. The guy that did come to bow hunt spent the first night in his camper, but unlike this year, it was very cold, which is typical for here. The remaining nights he took lodging at a nearby motel, about 5 or 6 miles away.

C) I cannot take time to arrange for licenses, Deer Management Permits (remember, this is WMU 6-S, as in the letter s, not the number 5) lodging, food or drink. I'm truly sorry about that. I'd prefer to have things as sociable as possible, but I have neither the time nor the resources. I have no problem making recommendations for you, finding phone numbers and addresses, things like that, but honestly I'd have to limit it to that.

D) If the occasional coyote presents a shot opportunity, TAKE IT!!!! The only thing we have more of a problem with than deer is those red wolves/"coyotes." But that's another subject altogether. They are in the last stages of what is called "habituation" which, in overly simple terms means that they're on the verge of adding US to their menu. Two days ago, it was twilight as I was pulling into the driveway, a big male was marking his territory on my garage door, right outside of the place where our dog (male) was sitting, inside. The place stunk. I had to scrub it away. They sit and watch the pickers from uneasy distances of less than 20 FEET. They chase the tractors. I think you get the picture, they're not our friends. Please shoot them. They aren't trapped or hunted enough to be afraid of us. And I don't have time. I'm off today and confined to the house today because of last night, but the sun just popped out and I hear a predator call singing to me... we'll see. One neighbor always asks permission to hunt and trap them, we always give it, but I don't think he's ever done any of it here.

E) KEEP IT ALL LEGAL!!! If you take a deer, it has to be called in to DECALS. The head and at least 3 inches of the neck still attached to head have to be taken to the CWD inspection station, about 12 miles away. The gut pile(s) must remain at the kill site. You have to know the rules as far as transporting deer meat or carcasses out of the CWD containment area, I am not familiar with them since I live where I hunt.

F) DON'T SHOOT ME, MY FAMILY, MY NEIGHBORS OR OUR PETS! Well, I'll provide a list of neighbors and pets not to shoot, the rest -- well.... ok, just kidding about that last part.

Anyhow, this is getting long, if anyone is genuinely serious about doing this, contact me. Also, coyote season is open until March 25, 2007. Feel free.

Remember -- although there are 92 acres here, that's really not a lot of land. It's 3,000 feet due north from the back of my house to the woods, the rows of trees are oriented north-south so it's a great view of the orchard, and then another 300 feet or so of woods to the back of the neighbors' property. SOME of the neighbors to the sides don't mind you coming on their property a little way, it's all fields anyhow; others will kill you for carrying a gun (or any hunting implement) too close to "their Bambi woods." And y'know, those are the worst, most callous, most defiant and aggressive trespassers out there; they act as though their intentions make them superior and that they can arbitrarily obliterate property lines and laws. They've pretty much accepted the rules from me, though, so nothing real to worry about from them anymore. Anyways, point is, there actually COULD be a point where there'd be too many people at a time. Experience tells me that that's not likely to ever even come close to happening, but hey... as said, if serious, contact me, it should be really easy to keep coordinated.

 

[Tim Clark]

p.s. - I'm not too far from other excellent hunting areas in both Northern and Southern Zones. The one bowhunter that took me up on my offer was from around Scranton, he had a good time elsewhere as well. Now he prefers closer to home (two kids since then) along the NY/PA border. So if you're coming to hunt and have a lot of time, there's good pickings besides here. Again, holler.

 

[jethro224]

Tim,
I'm glad you're OK.
That's mighty nice of you to make the offer of a good huntin' spot. Too bad I live way too far away to take you up on it... Sounds like a real nice place. :hatsoff:

 

[Blackfoot]

Yeah well I got 2 deer with my Cherokee last year. :blah:

 

[PreglerD]

Hi Tim. Thanks for the offer.I will be very interested to take this offer and go to this area for a ML-hunting holiday trip together with my family. Perhaps we can get in closer contact with PT to discuss details. In GE you have to make 1 year course and a very heavy test to get the hunting licence. This licence is for a lifetime and allows to buy the necessary hunting weapons.

 

[Tim Clark]

Thanks to all.

I'm working from my home office today. Around 9AM or so, I went to the kitchen for a cup of coffee and looked out the window which happens to look out over the entire orchard, and beyond, to the north. We didn't get nearly as much snow as was forecast, but we did get about 8 or 9 inches, and it's much easier to see animals with the snow as a background. Well, what I saw made me grab the binoculars, and for the next half hour or so I was watching a living documentary, if you will. Coyotes. Amazing. Antics, playing, pushing it too far with the big dogs and then running for dear life. "Mouse-pouncing." Rubbing faces in the snow as they propelled themselves forward along the ground. Heads arched fully back when howling. I even opened the window to enhance the effect; even though they were about 2,600 feet away, the sound still carried to my ears.

Then the phone rang and snapped me back to reality.

It was the insurance company, as expected the Jeep was a total loss. But the good news is, it was so well maintained (thank God!) that they gave me just $56.10 less than the absolute maximum allowed based on NADA book values, etc. That was remarkable. So the lesson there is, keep 'em as though they were for sale EVERY DAY, because they are, really -- because, if the buyer isn't someone else, it is YOU.

Anyhow, then I looked back out, the show was breaking up and moving on out to the fields to the northwest and would soon disappear from my view. And I got to thinking, it used to be as many as 120 + deer that we'd see on some wintry days... what a quandary: Too many deer, so... do we encourage the coyotes as predators to multiply aa a tool to reduce the deer numbers? While that may seem sensible at first glance, the answer is a resounding "NO!!!", because we have a lot of coyotes AND a lot of deer. Sorry, PETA.

No, the answer is simple, and that is to reduce the herds, and the packs. In fact, the packs will be somewhat reduced BY reducing the size of the herd; naturally, coyotes are opportunists and will survive on anything, or even nothing at all.

So, the answer is -- look back to our forefathers. Get out the guns and/or traps, but be sure that we're keeping everything 100% legal, moral, and ethical, and git 'r done.

Modern life doesn't much allow us to do any of that, does it? I had to laugh out loud when I thought about how many guys have never come to hunt, and then realized that I was standing right there, seeing this with my own two eyes, up close, live, and personal, and couldn't get down there to do what I was wishing could be done, because of -- demands of modern living.

Oh well, I've been writing this in-between calls and such. :yakyak: I think it might be time to start putting a gun beside each north-facing window in the house, and by the back doors... I think I have enough guns! LOL! Either that, or sell the place and move, so as to remove this awful temptation from me... :surrender:

 

[RC]

owwwww, tim, ya wrote that jes to bust on me didn't ya! when i get stuff together here..oh gees, ya might lookie out yer window and see a bearded guy with a smootbore playin tag with them yotes! did ya get my pt? later, oh an god bless ya on the jeep/insurance thing! now, another jeep in yer future? RC

 

[Tim Clark]

haha! LOL!

Yeah, RC, I was wondering if you'd see that. And I got your PM. Sorry about not responding before now.

Yes, the insurance company gave me a quote, believe it or not it was for only $56.10 less than the absolute maximum that they could give. MUCH higher than I was expecting. I guess it just goes to show that good maintenance PAYS. Kind of like our guns, I'd say. I always try to have the mindset that my vehicle is for sale EVERY DAY - even if it's ME that is the buyer. Either way, every day, it's for sale. And every day that I "keep" it is another day that I bought it.

I've been in touch with a guy downstate that has a 1996 with 224,000 miles on it, the body is in perfect showroom condition, I plan on getting it and then swapping the mechanicals from my jeep into the "body donor" jeep. I'll be able to retain the best parts of my old jeep in a newer body. Can you say, "FrankenJeep?" LOL! :shocked2:

Oh, and guess what? That "donor" Jeep -- $900.00. Nine-hundred bucks. Thank God! It's nice to know people... :rotf:

It'll be good to still have a Jeep.

I can't find any of the map copies that I made years ago for new-to-here hunters. I'll try to whip up another one for you or anyone else.

I need to clarify a point that you brought up in your private message, RC, specifically related to bow hunting. I have nothing against compound bows or any other legal outfit. However, no crossbows, even if they become legal around here. Only exception being if you or a hunter with you are legally handicapped and legally permitted to use one. By the way, that's another thing, you can drive right in here. Just use common sense and common decency, and contact me first. Certain areas are always going to be a traction problem, even for the tractors. Also you'll spook the game if you go driving all over the place. Okay, enough of that.

Yes, I make my own bows, and arrows, ...and bowstrings... and leather... if anyone is interested in such forum recommendations PM me so it doesn't take this in another off-topic direction! LOL!

As for treestands, I don't use them. If anyone insists on using them, contact me ahead of time. I will consider trimming some of the area that regularly produce deer, and have at least two shooting lanes per spot. Portable stands only, and only for as long as you'll be here. AND YOU MUST BRING AND USE SAFETY STRAPS ETC.!!! Liability insurance will not pay for your stupidity or mine for allowing you here. But you know that some slick lawyer can make ME pay for it. And I won't have it. So use your heads.

As for state land, none is really nearby, although about 15 minutes south, the east side of NY Route 12, you'll come to side roads that lead into the Tassel Hill Wilderness Area, which has really great hunting. There are bear there, but no bear hunting in that area. I suppose you could sit at US 20 and shoot one on the other side of the road, but... c'mon now.... However, there is bear hunting at the intersection of NY 8 and US Route 20, south of 20 and east of 8. Again, not too far. As for Tassel Hill, it runs along the north side of US 20 and in the area east of 12 and west of 8. Get a map, it'll make a lot more sense... It's also a great little place for minor off-roading, if that's up your alley. Very accessible, but I'd still recommend 4WD. Seasonal use roads, y'know? I love going there with my (a?) Jeep whenever I can; the scenery is great, terrain can be challenging, and hunting... all free for the doing. Lots of people pitch a tent or park a camper along the seasonal use roads. "Side" roads are not much for anything but muddy off-roading. Lots of fun, though. Not too big and not too small. Goldilocks would love it there.

Well, gotta go again, talk to you later.