Hard card on top of shot= denser patterns?

[Britsmoothy]

Clyde's first video clearly shows the jet of hot gas expanding the wad behind the bullet on exit from the barrel.
All the videos demonstrate a huge distinction from that of nitro examples. Frankly nitro slowmo footage seems tame by comparison!

How some still think that any wad system that has even some small amount of mass and is then compressed densely but does not get rammed into the shot volume ON EXIT of a black powder gun is beyond me!
I have said it before and will again, I honestly believe the development of chokes was first done to over come the effect of wads in bp cartridges and the COMMON negative effect on the patterns! Any increase in effective range was a secondary consequence IMHO.

B.

 

[Britsmoothy]

This shows it very well!

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/308884-gun-flash/?p=2790166

B.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

One only has to look at the effort expended to know the importance of the shotgun cushion wad. The Brits in particular spent centuries perfecting wad performance. Five generations of Greeners, the Purdeys , Holland and Holland spent untold hours developing the proper load combinations for their muzzle loading shotguns.

If the use of the hard card only was the solution, these or others gun makers would have recognized that in the flintlock era.

It is easy to develop an opinion based on limited loads and firearms. We shoot a load and the use of a cushion wad produces a donut shaped pattern. We remove the cushion wad and use a hard card only and the donut hole disappears. Problem solved.

Well not really!! The hard card only solution happens often enough it is safe to assume it was known to the early gun makers also.

But these folks spent years studying bore shape, load combinations, powder quality, etc. Why? All this tweaking and tuning was an attempt to improve the pattern smoothness and shot count. Simply eliminating the donut hole was not enough.

Even into the BP cartridge era, fine guns were shipped with powder and shot measures and detailed loading instructions. The smokeless era brought more changes; higher pressures, different material, shot cups and non-toxic shot, all requiring the appropriate wadding.

As muzzle loaders we are free to shoot whatever powder/wad /shot combination we choose. So, there must be a reason the top national and international shooters use cushion wads.

But as always the choice is up to the muzzle loading shooter. No one loads our guns but us.

 

[George]

How some still think that any wad system that has even some small amount of mass and is then compressed densely but does not get rammed into the shot volume ON EXIT of a black powder gun is beyond me!

Since both the wad and the shot travel up the bore and exit the muzzle at exactly the same speed, it would require an extra force on the wad to make it accelerate through the shot. Where do you think that extra force comes from?

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

Allow me to shift the paradigm of thinking for a moment.


If the shot expands.....it does so from the center point.......if the shot expands from the center......eventually there will be no shot in the center...... :hmm:

 

[Britsmoothy]

How some still think that any wad system that has even some small amount of mass and is then compressed densely but does not get rammed into the shot volume ON EXIT of a black powder gun is beyond me!

Since both the wad and the shot travel up the bore and exit the muzzle at exactly the same speed, it would require an extra force on the wad to make it accelerate through the shot. Where do you think that extra force comes from?

Spence

Good point however I don't advocate the wad accelerates through the shot.

What I do advocate is, when the shot leaves the muzzle it is no longer influenced by the combustion forces. The wad is though! The wad is also compressed now too, denser.
With so much energy in the form of a jet still being offered from black powder the wad suddenly free of the opposing force in front of it does indeed accelerate into the rear of the shot column. Not a lot! By a miniscule amount however let's not forget any tiny influences at the muzzle have huge effects! Rifles especially.
I and many others have steered shot patterns by simply removing a portion of muzzle by the flat file! Very little is removed to shift the pattern feet at range!
Let's be clear, all this happens at the muzzle. Not inches away, the slightest of slight influence becomes an obvious huge issue down range. Like the tiniest of tiny burrs in a rifle muzzle causing endless frustration until it is found!
The very nature of bp also comes into play too, offering huge amounts of gas that whence the shot clears the muzzle is free to accelerate the light wad faster but only for the depth of the compressed light wad!
Probably the reason why thin cards work well!
B.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

The density of the wad increase was it is compressed by the combustion gasses but its mass and hence the absorbed energy remains the same. Even in its compressed density is only a fraction of the density of the shot.

The wad leaves the barrel behind the shot column and both wad and shot begin to slow down from air drag. Even though it is somewhat in the air shadow of the shot, its mass is so small it soon falls way.

I like my theory better; there is so much ejecta from the combustion of the black powder, the wad slowing and falling off, will at times, upset the glass flow creating turbulences in the shot column.

One guess is as good as another when it comes to black powder.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Who is guessing sir?

Years ago I came across so called doughnut patterns.
They stopped happening when fibre wads of significant length laced with lubricant were replaced with a mere few thin OS cards.
Via a reference to Mr VM Star.
While I assume what may be happening yes, it is however via results of my own experiments!

Do I still use fibre wads? Yes. But in pieces!

B.

 

[George]

I follow your line of reasoning, and you could be right. You certainly have company, it's a scenario of long standing that several people advocate. It seems to me that something else must be involved, though, because I shot using 1/2" lubricated cushion wads for a long time in both 12 and 20 gauge, barrels long and short, and was never bothered by donut holes. Also, wouldn't plain 1/8" hard card wads do the same thing? They start out dense and get denser.

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

Thick fiber wads.....tried and hate 'em
Even tried used wine corks cut in half.....worked but fail.
tried cork and felt cushions with limited success.
Hard cards or better yet thick veg tan leather :thumbsup:

Tried many other weird combos too but that gets too complicated.

 

[coloradoclyde]

How some still think that any wad system that has even some small amount of mass and is then compressed densely but does not get rammed into the shot volume ON EXIT of a black powder gun is beyond me!

This would probably happen if the barrel length was only as long as the payload.
But once the payload reaches terminal velocity everything begins to slow down.
In real life and slow motion video I have never seen a wad hit the target before the shot.

I still think that a donut hole is the result of lateral expansion and not any kind of forward momentum.

A smoke ring is similar to a donut hole, but I don't think they are caused by the same forces.
If they are then I would presume the vortex is created by the blow-by of gasses as the payload travel down the barrel, or immediately upon exit caused by the wad being to long. The gas sweeps along the long wad column creating the vortex.

Just some goofy thoughts. :grin:

 

[Britsmoothy]

I follow your line of reasoning, and you could be right. You certainly have company, it's a scenario of long standing that several people advocate. It seems to me that something else must be involved, though, because I shot using 1/2" lubricated cushion wads for a long time in both 12 and 20 gauge, barrels long and short, and was never bothered by donut holes. Also, wouldn't plain 1/8" hard card wads do the same thing? They start out dense and get denser.

Spence

I don't know about the hard cards Spence. I never use then as they seem difficult to ram. A single is card under a fibre wad does for me.

B.

 

[Britsmoothy]

How some still think that any wad system that has even some small amount of mass and is then compressed densely but does not get rammed into the shot volume ON EXIT of a black powder gun is beyond me!

This would probably happen if the barrel length was only as long as the payload.
But once the payload reaches terminal velocity everything begins to slow down.
In real life and slow motion video I have never seen a wad hit the target before the shot.

I still think that a donut hole is the result of lateral expansion and not any kind of forward momentum.

A smoke ring is similar to a donut hole, but I don't think they are caused by the same forces.
If they are then I would presume the vortex is created by the blow-by of gasses as the payload travel down the barrel, or immediately upon exit caused by the wad being to long. The gas sweeps along the long wad column creating the vortex.

Just some goofy thoughts. :grin:

Clyde, that is just far more weired than my beliefs! Vortices indeed!
Blow by is far more serious! It destroys patterns totally.

B.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Just massaging the medulla Britt..... :grin:

 

[Britsmoothy]

Is it swollen again :redface:

 

[Grandpa Ron]

If it works and makes you happy by all means do it. Passing it on as a suggestion to others is also good. You are certainly not alone in your opinion of cushion wads.

Just keep in mind that history and science are not on your side; so you can expect people to be skeptical.

 

[Tinker2]

Years ago I came across so called doughnut patterns.
They stopped happening when fibre wads of significant length laced with lubricant were replaced with a mere few thin OS cards.
Via a reference to Mr VM Star.

I too load with a few thin OS cards as recommended by V. M. Starr



William Alexander

 

[Britsmoothy]

I care not for whome may or not be on 'my side'.
I do care that I speak the the truth before my God when speaking to others!

B.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Is it swollen again :redface:

:rotf: :rotf:

 

[coloradoclyde]

Years ago I came across so called doughnut patterns.
They stopped happening when fibre wads of significant length laced with lubricant were replaced with a mere few thin OS cards.
Via a reference to Mr VM Star.

I too load with a few thin OS cards as recommended by V. M. Starr



William Alexander

My crazy theory may have merit. :hmm: