Hard card on top of shot= denser patterns?

[Britsmoothy]

Of course it may, you keep massaging your thingy :hatsoff:

B :haha:

 

[Darkgael]

Someone mention V.M. Starr?

[Quote:
use only one kind of wads and those I cut from cardboard like display signs that are extra thick, about 3/32 is about right and use two of these on the powder and one on the shot. I have had several pretty wise gun men tell me that that is not enough wads before they saw the results but never have had one say a word further on the subject after they had seen one of my guns perform so loaded.
/quote]

 

[Grandpa Ron]

My mind is made up.

Please do not confuse me with facts!! :rotf:

 

[Skychief]

Wanted to let all know of another patterning day, this one for a friend's smoothbore.

In a nutshell, after many different loadings, we found the densest turkey load for his Green Mountain barreled, 20 gauge.

65 grains of 2f and 1 1/2 ounces of sixes worked best out of his cylinder bore.

It too involved a hard card on top of the shot charge! :hmm:

This new loading bested his usual turkey load remarkably. His "usual" loading consisted of 80 grains of 2f, hard card, 1 1/2 ounces of sixes topped off with a thin overshot card.

Also, his gun did not fair well with several attempts with full and cut cushion wads.

Thought I would share this with you all.

Best regards, Skychief.

 

[Britsmoothy]

:hatsoff:

 

[bpd303]

Like the old timers said. Less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead. :thumbsup:

 

[stantdm]

My NW trade gun is a .62 caliber. I have used a variety of load methods, charge weights, and shot weights. I use a heavy card over the shot. When I use 60 grain powder charges and an equal volume of shot it patterns as well with a wad as it does with a hard card at the ranges I would shoot a turkey (about 25 yards) If I go to 80 grains and leave the shot weight alone then it opens up a bit. I use Circle Fly fiber wads soaked in Olive oil. I went to their website and here is what they say, for what it is worth.....


"....take the time to pattern your gun. You can sometimes tighten a pattern by cutting the fiber cushion wad in half thickness. Some guns will shoot well with a full wad, some like half of the wad. Also changing fiber wad material may change things... If you see a hole in the middle of the pattern, cut the fiber wad in half, it cuts down the tendency to blow the fiber wad up thru the shot charge, and will sometimes close the hole."

I find it interesting that they say the fiber wad can be blown thru the shot charge.

 

[Golfswithwolves]

Each smoothbore seems to be a rule unto itself as to what loading it shoots best! It does seem that a lot of them do not like a thick and heavily lubed fiber wad though (and the reason why this setup may cause "doughnut holes" is a mystery as far as I can tell). I have had the best results so far with Starr's formula of overshot cards, but other shooters must go with whatever works well for them.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

To re-quote bpd's comment "Like the old timers said. Less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead."

Shot guns kill by multiple wounds provided you have enough penetration. So it is best to shoot whatever load combination puts the most pellets into the turkeys head and neck region.

Fast loads and heavy shot are fine if you have a choked gun and are going to reach out to 40 yards where you need the energy retention of larger shot size.

Unlike a body shot where you need the pellet energy to push through the turkey’s feathers and muscle, a head shot smacks into skull and neck bones. The more hits the better.

My 20 ga. trade gun load is 70 gains and 1 ¼ oz. mix of # 7 ½ and #6 shot at 20 yards or less.

 

[Skychief]

The new found load of 65 grains powder, produced its densest pattern with a heavy card atop the shot versus a lighter card.

 

[Skychief]

At the risk of being redundant, I want to report about another afternoon at the patterning board.

A different friend was readying his 20 gauge fowler for the upcoming turkey season. I met him at his farm.

By now, you might expect what I will type next.....A hard card on top of his shot charge improved the density of his pattern too!

He had as hard of a time wrapping his head around the "why" of his results, as I did.

He found his new turkey load though. Besides the hard card atop the shot, his particular fowler did its best with 4 "overshot" cards sitting on top of the powder.

As a side note, his patterns bested another friends patterns from a modern 16 gauge with a modified choke. I am unsure about his loads used. Still, I never would have bet on that.

Just wanted to tell of another convert.

Best regards, Skychief.

 

[Britsmoothy]

This is amazing, thanks :hatsoff:

 

[kurts]

Danny Caywood pretty much recommended that type of load when I bought my fowler.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Why that particular load combination works is anyone’s guess. But once again it shows the importance of finding the right combination for your gun.

The idea of the thin card wad over the shot is so that it will have minimum effect on the shot column. However you found a thicker wad produces a denser pattern. My guess is that the thicker hard card takes slightly longer to separate from the shot, so the opening of the shot column is delayed a tad creating a denser pattern.

Please advise the thickness of the wads you used, I have hard card wads that vary from .080” to .140 “ and over shot wads that vary from that .030” to ,050”.

Finally, modern shot guns are not immune to the same variable, and these same tests are done by serious reloaders. Unfortunately they are limited by case dimensions and the sensitivity of smokeless powder to pressure spikes with load variations.

Thanks for the post. :thumbsup:

 

[Skychief]

Grandpa Ron, I will get those measurements for you tomorrow.

It's getting late here, but, want to mention that I dirtied my 20 gauge fowler this evening for a couple of hours.

I tried two hard cards on top of the shotload and each time, found a bit denser patter than the loads using just one hard card atop the shot.

Not a huge gain, but, an average of 5-6 more pieces of shot in a turkeys head and neck.

These results were repeatable as well. Every pattern with two hard cards bested each pattern with only one.

Of course, being greedy, I had to try three hard cards. The results were thin patterns. I had reached the law of diminishing returns, I suppose. :haha:

I'll go measure those hard cards and get that information on here tonight.

Back in a minute, Skychief

 

[Skychief]

20 gauge cards are .080".

12 gauge cards are .140".

Hope this helps, Skychief.

 

[kituwa]

Be sure and try a home made shot cup out of heavy brown paper.I have good results with them in my gun.I use a card over powder wad followed by a chunk of wasps nest then my paper shot cup followed by more wasp nest. That gives me the best patterns of all.The wasp nests are sort of gummy and you can pack them real tight.No wasp nest is safe around here, i get every one i see now.
My next project is to try some patterns with my home made shot that was a failour.It all turned out looking like little tadpoles with a tail.I figure why not try them anyway.They should fly tail to the rear i think so they will have the diamitor of a #6 with the weight of a #2 or so.Who knows, it may pattern good and i will have the magic load,lol.

 

[Skychief]

Thanks for the suggestion kituwa.

I have tried such loads with mixed results and found that they weren't my cup of tea. Others here make use of some sort of cup, though.

Let us all know how the "tadpoles" perform please.

Welcome to the forum, Skychief. :hatsoff:

 

[Skychief]

Curious to know if any of you have tried this sort of loading and your results.

 

[BrownBear]

I'm king salmon distracted at the moment, but it's on the list!