Hard cast, wide flat nose bullets?

[Philip A.]

This forum is a treasure trove of good info... Almost all the questions I can think of can be sorted with a quick search, often going sidewise into a rabbit hole of ancient and modern knowledge, one of the best fireams forums I've seen.

On the topic of hard cast, flat-nosed bullets, I only found a thread from 2009, and a few mentions here and there.

Did someone successfully found a way to make hard cast bullets that work in a muzzleloader?

I'm thinking of differential casting, like first pouring the hard core in the mold with a sleeve, so that it leaves a space between the core and the sides of the bullet, then removing the sleeve and making a second pour of soft lead to make the body (and driving bands) of the bullet.

The reason is, after years of serious hunting with all sorts of calibers and bullets, I've seen what works best on tough, big game: it's a hard, wide, flat nose. Will penetrate deeper and straighter than any round nose or deforming bullet, and make much bigger holes than expected from caliber size.

 

[deerstalkert]

seeing where you live I am not qualified to advise on what you need. I can only say my experience.
I have killed small bear, elk, moose, deer, wolf, mountain lion, coyote, and one sabre toothed snow shoe hare with round ball pure lead.
I have also used wide flat bullets in magnum pistols for bear, elk, deer, and moose.
i am what some would call crippled in that i have MS and tire quickly. meaning i don't want anything to either run off or run over and bite or scratch me.
I had to shoot a Black bear once as he stood over me after i back peddled and tripped over a log breaking my leg. he got a 215 grain wide flat nose from a 41 mag vent up through his pallet and out between his ears. plenty of penetration there, and with any of the other critters i have taken.
I cast up a bunch of .54 cal round ball with lead that went 22-26 Brinell hardness.
i used then in my ball tumbler making powder. switched to brass balls as it is cleaner and decided to try the hard balls in one of my 54's that i needed a .018 patch around a .535 ball.
with a bear fat lubed .010 patch i didn't need a hammer to seat them.
when i had a buddy that shoots better than me shoot them, he was getting 2.5 inch groups at 65 yards. we shot some on my hard plates and they made small center craters.

I would venture with a stout charge under them they would go end to end of an elk.
the balls i recovered from the elk and moose were almost through the hide on the off side of a broad side shot.
I remember a mule deer buck i shot 30 years or so ago. clipped hair off the under side of his chin on a dead on frontal shot. maybe 40 feet away. i found that ball with his when i dressed him out. full length and it had doubled size as it flattened. most of his insides didn't need cut loose.
I for one would love to see you test out the hard conical bullets on game in Africa. i cannot think of any reason not to try it other then lack of expansion due to velocity. but then trading for penetration may not be bad.
by the way welcome!

 

[Philip A.]

seeing where you live I am not qualified to advise on what you need. I can only say my experience.
I have killed small bear, elk, moose, deer, wolf, mountain lion, coyote, and one sabre toothed snow shoe hare with round ball pure lead.
I have also used wide flat bullets in magnum pistols for bear, elk, deer, and moose.
i am what some would call crippled in that i have MS and tire quickly. meaning i don't want anything to either run off or run over and bite or scratch me.
I had to shoot a Black bear once as he stood over me after i back peddled and tripped over a log breaking my leg. he got a 215 grain wide flat nose from a 41 mag vent up through his pallet and out between his ears. plenty of penetration there, and with any of the other critters i have taken.
I cast up a bunch of .54 cal round ball with lead that went 22-26 Brinell hardness.
i used then in my ball tumbler making powder. switched to brass balls as it is cleaner and decided to try the hard balls in one of my 54's that i needed a .018 patch around a .535 ball.
with a bear fat lubed .010 patch i didn't need a hammer to seat them.
when i had a buddy that shoots better than me shoot them, he was getting 2.5 inch groups at 65 yards. we shot some on my hard plates and they made small center craters.

I would venture with a stout charge under them they would go end to end of an elk.
the balls i recovered from the elk and moose were almost through the hide on the off side of a broad side shot.
I remember a mule deer buck i shot 30 years or so ago. clipped hair off the under side of his chin on a dead on frontal shot. maybe 40 feet away. i found that ball with his when i dressed him out. full length and it had doubled size as it flattened. most of his insides didn't need cut loose.
I for one would love to see you test out the hard conical bullets on game in Africa. i cannot think of any reason not to try it other then lack of expansion due to velocity. but then trading for penetration may not be bad.
by the way welcome!

Yes, ball will work on the majority of the animals and in most situations. That would be my first choice for everything from plinking to putting meat on the table.

But we have a few critters that are more than a yard wide, and weigh in the SUV class... For these I'd rather try good ole' penetration and hard stuff. Of course I'm not dumb enough to go on such a hunt without an unmentionable backing me up, but I can't refuse myself to go on such a hunt when the opportunity arises

 

[deerstalkert]

let me know when you determine to sally forth! i will gladly be your back up!
seems that Turner Kirkland did some of that work on his trips over to your woods. i will have to dig out my old manuals and see.
maybe 50 years ago i tried what you referred to as differential casting. i have those notes here somewhere.
At that time most of my energies were spent working and very little hunting. other than two legged varmints.
also at that time i was mainly casting for .357 and 30-06.

 

[Philip A.]

let me know when you determine to sally forth! i will gladly be your back up!
seems that Turner Kirkland did some of that work on his trips over to your woods. i will have to dig out my old manuals and see.
maybe 50 years ago i tried what you referred to as differential casting. i have those notes here somewhere.
At that time most of my energies were spent working and very little hunting. other than two legged varmints.
also at that time i was mainly casting for .357 and 30-06.

You'll be welcome any day!

If you get these notes, they'll be precious...

 

[User_Dan]

Can really shoot anything with a tight fitting patch

 

[Greg Y]

I've sent a 495gr no excuses soft lead lengthwise through a mule deer at 175yds. I've done the same with a .452 hardcast from 45lc.

 

[Greg Y]

The hardest part will be getting the bullet to slug up in the bore if it's too hard.

 

[Pete G]

Early shooters used a composite bullet; hard on the front and soft on the rear. Each part was molded separately and then swaged together. That may be the solution.

 

[new2bp]

Weeell..... the modern response is "use a sabot".

Since that won't fly here.... I have to ask, would paper patching provide enough rifling engagement so that a standard hard cast slug could be used?

 

[mtfishn]

Weeell..... the modern response is "use a sabot".

Since that won't fly here.... I have to ask, would paper patching provide enough rifling engagement so that a standard hard cast slug could be used?

I don't believe that combination would work. A friend had been casting Wweights and paper patching in a .45-70....couldn't get enough pressure to upset the bullet and take rifling 'till he went to pure lead....then the same mold he used with Wweights worked beautifully. I really think ....for a MLoader.....a hard cast ball would work well. need more? Get a bigger cal.

 

[leadhoarder]

They make patches out of some modern brightly colored miracle material that allow the use of the hardest cast bullets. I think talking about them is against the rules though.

 

[Philip A.]

I don't believe that combination would work. A friend had been casting Wweights and paper patching in a .45-70....couldn't get enough pressure to upset the bullet and take rifling 'till he went to pure lead....then the same mold he used with Wweights worked beautifully. I really think ....for a MLoader.....a hard cast ball would work well. need more? Get a bigger cal.

They make patches out of some modern brightly colored miracle material that allow the use of the hardest cast bullets. I think talking about them is against the rules though.

Patching on a hard cast has been tried with poor results, so unless there is a new miracle drug... (I'll check for that, leadhoarder, thanks for the pointer).

But casting the bullet with a hard core and a soft outer layer is possible, someone must have done that over the last century or so...

As for bigger caliber, the idea is to have a better profile than a round ball, with better sectional density, so as to use a reasonable calibre (thinking of .58 as the upper limit). Frederick Selous used to hunt elephant with a 4 bore, and he later regretted having used that howitzer because it permanently damaged him...

 

[mtfishn]

Patching on a hard cast has been tried with poor results, so unless there is a new miracle drug... (I'll check for that, leadhoarder, thanks for the pointer).

But casting the bullet with a hard core and a soft outer layer is possible, someone must have done that over the last century or so...

As for bigger caliber, the idea is to have a better profile than a round ball, with better sectional density, so as to use a reasonable calibre (thinking of .58 as the upper limit). Frederick Selous used to hunt elephant with a 4 bore, and he later regretted having used that howitzer because it permanently damaged him...

Excellent points.... I agree!

 

[nkbj]

The most dangerous game I deal with these days are feral tomato cans.
But I've an idea to toss out here. This is an old Ideal Company mold that just happens to drop bullets the right diameter for paper patching up to be used in a fast twist .40 bore.

With an adjustable length core mold you get a straight cylinder with both ends flat as a pancake which all by itself is a most formidable hunting bullet but you can modify the plunger design to produce either a hollow base, hollow point or a wide flat nose, round nose, whatever.
Changing a second hand mold to make smooth sided cylinders of any caliber is just about the easiest modification you could ask of a machinist. Note that the cavity needs to be straight but not a polished surface. Add an adjustable plunger and voila, instant success.

Oh, as regards the use of alloying adjuncts to harden the bullet nose, if you really want hardening then a core mold will allow you to cast two part bullets with a non-expanding nose. But I would not depend on two part bullets if my life depended on the bullet holding together. I'd just get a bigger gun.