hawken help

[roundball]

GENERAL COMMENT POSTING:

IMO, the modern use of the model name Hawken is not an irritant that registers on the radar of the general population of ML users at all...its only a tiny few who want to make an issue out of any post that inadvertently uses the term Hawken, and they do so knowing full well that the context of the occasional poster is not claiming any of the mass produced Hawken's to be an original Hawken.

I sure am glad that people who are into horses as a hobby or a business don't get themselves all worked up over and take issue with every conversation where the model name Mustang or Pinto comes up...or that people in Africa don't constantly take issue with every conversation where the model name Impala comes up.

If a serious discussion is taking place in a historical context about original Hawkens, then that's fine and it should be clarified in the context of that particular conversation...but I know I'm not the only one on this forum who is sick and tired of that same old worn out mantra being trotted out ad nausem whenever the term Hawken is used when it's obvious as the sun rising in the east there is no attempt to be using it to pass off a modern made ML as an original Hawken.

In fact, I'm going on record right now...from now on, in spite if my personal track record of always wasting my time to type the letters T/C in front of the word Hawken when I use it because of a minority of individuals who like to challenge it, I'm intentionally just going to start using the word Hawken...it'll be fun to sit back and see just how much heartburn it causes, and who it gives heartburn to...and I'll start right now:
I'm planning on going hunting tomorrow...certainly for deer and possibly for squirrels...when I do, I'm going to use my .62cal rifled Hawken for deer and my .28ga smoothbore Hawken for squirrels.

:thumbsup:

 

[Rogue River]

:grin:-------- :hatsoff:

 

[wildeagle]

Right on Roundball, some need to pop a couple of rolaids.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

So it's perfectly alright to call a Chevrolet a Ford? Or a Winchester a Remington? Or a Thompson Center a Pedersoli? Wow! Who knew...... :rotf:

 

[mykeal]

An observation, worth exactly what it cost:

There is a great deal of irony in obsessing about someone else's obsessing...

...with apologies to The Bard.

 

[roundball]

worth exactly what it cost

As was your snide comment
:thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

So it's perfectly alright to call a Chevrolet a Ford? Or a Winchester a Remington? Or a Thompson Center a Pedersoli? Wow! Who knew...... :rotf:

:hmm: suggested reading: How to improve reading & comprehension skills

:rotf:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Nothing wrong with my skills, my friend. And I should always try to remember your deep devotion to the T/C product line, in particular the so called and badly misnamed marketing effort known as the Thompson Center "Hawken". A fine rifle and a monument to Warren Center's marketing skills if not to his respect for history and the products of others. It was an ethical question and apparently Mr. Center didn't know the answer. Anyway, Merry Christmas! :v

 

[tg]

ok thanks
so what I have is a HAWKEN replica? sorry Im new to this."

I think that when this type of question is asked a definitive answer is due, it does happen often not only with Hawkens but French guns and military guns as well, many new to the sport may believe every ML made and sold over the counter is an honest replica of an original, this needs too be adresses at times with some posters, the maner it is delt with is the issue,and often some one always argues that they saw an original that was exactly the same as a CVA Kentuchy or TC Hawken,(usually because the have one and have not looked real close) any moderate level gun student knows better but the torch has been lit and so rounds are likely to be exchanged, often a polite explanation of the reality of what is what with the guns offered, sets off a charge on the other end, it will continue to some degree, hopefully with as little fire works as possible, I have always felt that all aspects of a gun should be adressed when some one says "what do you think about so and so" and if the replica/non-replica thing is not an issue then that part of the gun critiqe ends and accuracy, quality, price and the other issues can be tossed around.

".62cal rifled Hawken for deer and my .28ga smoothbore Hawken for squirrels"

good luck on your hunt RB the deer and squirrels don't know a Hawken from a Fusil they'll drop when you touch off the powder no matter what you call the gun :thumbsup:

 

[Pork Chop]

So it's perfectly alright to call a Chevrolet a Ford?

As a car dork, I will answer that. There are a ton of Cobra replicas that have Chevy engines. Would you call them a Cobra - a Ford product? Heck, there are some out there that don't have anything Ford in them, yet they are called Ford/Shelby Cobras...

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

But they weren't made by Ford or Chevrolet were they? Anymore than the so called Spanish, Italian and T/C "Hawkens" were made by the original Hawken shop.

 

[Pork Chop]

But they weren't made by Ford or Chevrolet were they? Anymore than the so called Spanish, Italian and T/C "Hawkens" were made by the original Hawken shop.

No, the bulk of the replicas were not built by a major manufacturer, but they were and are called Cobras. Everyone knows the difference, and I don't know anyone (other than Carroll Shelby, but there is more to that story) that gets their panties in a wad over it. If your litmus test is that they had to be made by the original Hawken shop, then NO replicas can be called Hawken rifles - regardless of how accurate they may be.

 

[cowpoke1955]

Standingwolf,
See what you started :shake: . I was wrong on my first post. There was no patch box. You can check on Gun Broker and see the "Springfield Hawken". It has been relisted. It has a single trigger and fixed sights, much like the old CVAs. If these guys would read their history right, Jacob Hawken never died. He found the fountain of youth and moved to Spain. His great-great-great grandson who runs the office in Spain is named Juan Hawken-Ardesa. They got so large that they expanded to Italy and is ran by Davide Hawken-Pedersoli. You can sure tell who haven't been taking their blood pressure meds :blah: .

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

We've done this one to death several times. A Hawken is a specific type of rifle with certain features, many of which are quite subtle. Hawkens can vary somewhat, but it is easy to recognize them as Hawkens. Just as it is possible to recognize a carefully crafted reproduction of a Hawken even if it was made yesterday.

To call a rifle a Hawken when it in no way resembles a Hawken is at best a cynical marketing ploy and quite possibly fraud. For the individual who cares nothing for authenticity and wouldn't know an accurate Hawken reproduction from a frying pan, the Italian and Spanish stuff is just fine and saves him a lot of money. And since he doesn't know he doesn't really have a Hawken, life is beautiful. And there actually seems to be folks who would rather have a machine made production gun than a finely made, hand crafted one--in fact they don't grasp the difference.

Anyway, it's late and my typing finger is getting tired. It is astonishing that such a simple concept is so difficult for some to understand. Enjoy your "Hawken" in good health and Happy Holidays to you and yours. :thumbsup:

 

[maypo59]

Don't know.. mine looks an awfull lot like a "Hawken" gun.. got a barrel. Got a trigger (two in fact). Got a short wood stock. Fairly plain in build and stature. Buckhorn sights. Now it doesn't have quite as defined a nose on the comb as some Hawken's rifles I have seen.. and a few other minor points that only the purist will notice but to most, if I showed it to them, and they had a clue, they would validate that it's a "Hawken" meaning it roughly fits the mold of that rifle. It could in fact be an ORIGINAL plains style rifle by SOME OTHER, even more rare maker, and then I guess I could get real fuzzed up that they thought it was JUST a Hawken..

I think at this point, just as "coke" means "soda", and many other things in life have come to a point where a formal name for a particular MODEL has become GENERIC for a particular TYPE.

and just like Shelby Cobras, there will always be a market shore for people who absolutly have to have the original, and it will be VERY important for them to let you know that they have an ORIGINAL, and usually how much they paid for it.. and there will always be a market for people who like the looks and performance of the ORIGINAL, but can only justify spending .5 - 2% of what the ORIGINALS now cost to get an item that is functinaly the same and pleases them. And it's not "calling a Chevy a Ford" it's calling a Chevy or a Ford a "car". or a Camaro or a Mustang a "sports car" without pointing out the finer points of the windsor vs LT1 difference etc at al.

As long as they do not try to pass it off as ORIGINAL, or attempt to fake that it's ORIGINAL at sale time to make money, no problem.

At no one in particular.. but if the shoe fits, put it on and go for a walk:
I also think when a fellow comes on here with like 1 post and asks a question that gets YOUR hackles up, you could cut him a little slack with your answer. there was a time when YOU didn't know a DARN thing about muzzleloaders either.

I am fairly new to this myself, and one thing I have learned in the last year and a half is it is a VERY small community, and it sure as heck doesn't need the new guys getting brow beat in their first post to turn them off, and poof, negative community growth. The ammount of stuff to be learned is huge, from where, when, who, to how, why, and what for...

just my 2cents

 

[tg]

"I am fairly new to this myself, and one thing I have learned in the last year and a half is it is a VERY small community, and it sure as heck doesn't need the new guys getting brow beat in their first post to turn them off, and poof, negative community growth. The ammount of stuff to be learned is huge, from where, when, who, to how, why, and what for..."

Often the veteran members have heard some of the quetions many times and now and then several toss some general jabs around hopefully this is after a responsible answer has been provided,it is kind of like an insider joke with no harm intended but can get a bit testy and it can also be that way when someone on the other side keeps trying to argue their particular gun into the history books. put the two together and we usually have abour 8-9 pages before a moderator shuts it down, hopefull the newcommers realize that there is no sense of expression on this medium and not everything is meant as it sounds, as a whole on this forum the PC/HC thing should be considered pretty much something just to have as information available if needed as there is so much lee way given with sights and bullets that it does seem kind of silly at times to point out that the imported halfstock "Hawkens" only have one wedge key and a sytraight barrel likely shorter than the originals.



"Don't know.. mine looks an awfull lot like a "Hawken" gun.. got a barrel. Got a trigger (two in fact). Got a short wood stock. Fairly plain in build and stature. Buckhorn sights."

What make of Hawken do you have? I think the Browning and Ithica used to be close and the LGP is fair plains rifle type replica, I wasn't aware that there were any still around with the double pins and furniture and architecture of the "Hawkens" in a production gun, I am into a later period so don't keep up much on the RMFT stuff

 

[maypo59]

"Don't know.. mine looks an awfull lot like a "Hawken" gun.. got a barrel. Got a trigger (two in fact). Got a short wood stock. Fairly plain in build and stature. Buckhorn sights."

What make of Hawken do you have? I think the Browning and Ithica used to be close and the LGP is fair plains rifle type replica, I wasn't aware that there were any still around with the double pins and furniture and architecture of the "Hawkens" in a production gun, I am into a later period so don't keep up much on the RMFT stuff

Actually I have a Traditions St Louis Hawken, A Lyman GPR, and am about to get a Austin and Halleck mountain rifle.. my point was not how close any of these are to being a true Hawken, but that, depending on your point of reference and detail to which you look, which MOST people don't know what to look for, any of those three or hundreds of other "Hawken" style guns are just that..

 

[tg]

"my point was not how close any of these are to being a true Hawken, but that, depending on your point of reference and detail to which you look, which MOST people don't know what to look for, any of those three or hundreds of other "Hawken" style guns are just that.. "

Understood, now if a newcommer asks about a production gun and wants to get into re-enacting, it is best to share with him what differes twixt the originals and the various replicas then an informed choice can be made, if he is just looking for a gun to kill a deer the same info can be passed along for his own future reference and I don't mean slamming the choice of gun he is interested in,I have seen far to many folks come to these forums showing and telling of their (insert whatever non replica) only to be really bumbed that the vendor did not tell them of the shortcommings that particular gun has for the usage the buyer plans, these forums are a good place for folks to getoff on the right foot if history is an issue with their choice of guns and gear.There are many willing to help someone research and learn about a particular gun, but usually aome where in the first page or two a familiar voice pops up with "do what you want it's your gun" or "proove they did not have (blank) in 1757, " the PC NAZIS think they know everything" this is a typical scenerio that developes,and I have seen the number of well studied folks who used to try very hard to help someone with a question shrink, many don't even bother to answer anymore, leaving the inquisitive poster at the mercy of a few one book wonders who may take them down a slippery slope.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Don't know.. mine looks an awfull lot like a "Hawken" gun.. got a barrel. Got a trigger (two in fact). Got a short wood stock. Fairly plain in build and stature. Buckhorn sights. Now it doesn't have quite as defined a nose on the comb as some Hawken's rifles I have seen.. and a few other minor points that only the purist will notice but to most, if I showed it to them, and they had a clue, they would validate that it's a "Hawken" meaning it roughly fits the mold of that rifle. It could in fact be an ORIGINAL plains style rifle by SOME OTHER, even more rare maker, and then I guess I could get real fuzzed up that they thought it was JUST a Hawken..

I think at this point, just as "coke" means "soda", and many other things in life have come to a point where a formal name for a particular MODEL has become GENERIC for a particular TYPE.

and just like Shelby Cobras, there will always be a market shore for people who absolutly have to have the original, and it will be VERY important for them to let you know that they have an ORIGINAL, and usually how much they paid for it.. and there will always be a market for people who like the looks and performance of the ORIGINAL, but can only justify spending .5 - 2% of what the ORIGINALS now cost to get an item that is functinaly the same and pleases them. And it's not "calling a Chevy a Ford" it's calling a Chevy or a Ford a "car". or a Camaro or a Mustang a "sports car" without pointing out the finer points of the windsor vs LT1 difference etc at al.

As long as they do not try to pass it off as ORIGINAL, or attempt to fake that it's ORIGINAL at sale time to make money, no problem.

At no one in particular.. but if the shoe fits, put it on and go for a walk:
I also think when a fellow comes on here with like 1 post and asks a question that gets YOUR hackles up, you could cut him a little slack with your answer. there was a time when YOU didn't know a DARN thing about muzzleloaders either.

I am fairly new to this myself, and one thing I have learned in the last year and a half is it is a VERY small community, and it sure as heck doesn't need the new guys getting brow beat in their first post to turn them off, and poof, negative community growth. The ammount of stuff to be learned is huge, from where, when, who, to how, why, and what for...

just my 2cents

Thank you. You have done a splendid job of proving my point. The only sad thing is that you actually don't realize that you did so.

Where I come from Coke means Coke and soda is a generic term for a fizzy drink. You have to specify what you want or people will not be able to serve you. You can also ask for Pepsi or ginger ale or several other "sodas". Have a nice day.

 

[maypo59]

Thank you. You have done a splendid job of proving my point. The only sad thing is that you actually don't realize that you did so.

Where I come from Coke means Coke and soda is a generic term for a fizzy drink. You have to specify what you want or people will not be able to serve you. You can also ask for Pepsi or ginger ale or several other "sodas". Have a nice day.

LOL!! and you just proved mine. and please don't feel sad for me, I am fine.