hawken help

[tg]

I think I am getting tired of this whole ML thing.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Reread the first paragraph of your first post. Seldom if ever have I seen a more sophomoric and invalid argument in support of a point of view. I can see no point in continueing this discussion. Bye.

 

[cowpoke1955]

I just can't believe it. A new guy comes to the forum and ask a simple question. And "5" pages later, this simple question wasn't even answered. People go on a rampage on something that doesn't even have to do with the original question. Need to stop arguing like a bunch of spoiled kid and give everyone a big group hug .

 

[Renegade Dan]

I'm with cowpoke :slap:

 

[Zonie]

I agree too.

A newcomer to our forum asks:
"Any one ever heard of a springfield hawken?
I bought a barrel for 40 bucks in great shape.
I thought it would fit my cva stock but it wont.
I would like to find a stock for that barrel. "

There were about 4 replies that addressed the question.

I will admit that he did ask for more information about a Hawken but little did he imagine the can of worms he was opening.

IMO, if the resulting answers had given the history of the Hawken Brothers, a brief discription of their rifle and the place in history that their rifle has I would be the first to say "Job well done you guys!".
Instead this turned into a charge and counter-charge debate on the merits of reproductions, the lack of knowledge of the advertising departments and damn near anything else that came to mind, with nothing really answered the new members question.

Oh well, it's almost the end of the year. Perhaps we can do better next year.

 

With the economy in the state it's in. Who in the hell do you think is going to shell out that kind of money? Let's wake up and get real!

 

[LaBonte]

all I did was report on a couple recent sales of originals which had nothing to do with the ecnomy - as for the economy and folks not spending - the folks that save lots of dough still spend it - just read the history of the Great Depression and other down times........plus I'm in the business of selling so called "luxury items" my sales have increased by 300% over the last year..........

 

[Harold1950]

And he said: "Peace in the forums, Good will to the members and Merry Christmas to all...............

 

[ravenousfishing]

Well said Zonie. Did anyone else notice that the original poster dropped off the thread almost immediatly. Gotta wonder if he will ever try again. Remember guys, not everybody who uses this forum is an expert. Many newcomers to the sport come here because it is THE BEST PLACE for imformation about traditional "style" muzzleloaders. Often, they could care less about the details and history of the guns, they are just interested in shooting or hunting with something different. Given time they will move along at their own pace, and many will get more interested in the history and the real differences in these guns. Others will be just as happy shooting THEIR gun, not matter what type it is. None of this will happen though if the new shooter hangs it up because he views the sport as catering to nobody but arrogant fools living in the past. At least let them get their foot in the door before you chastise them too much.
For the record, I find both learning how to shoot and the history of these guns, old and new, fun and interesting. Just remember, there is a time and place for eveything, and more than enogh room for everyone in this sport.

 

[jae mobley]

I am still here, boy what did I start????
Thanks for all the info. Trying to learn all I can,really like muzzleloading,would like to take my newly aquired barrel and build another rifle.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I'm really glad you're still here. So, what was the question again? Happy Holidays! :thumbsup:

 

[chistech]

I'm even greener than Standing wolf to this forum, but I do belong to other forums on other topics where I have contributed more because I know more about the subject. I see these types of discussions all the time. I have been doing some reading on the Hawken brothers and their firearms though, and I think that most have missed the point. The purists here who have gotten mad with the use of the Hawken name by other manufacturers say that the new manufactured firearms bearing the Hawken name don't bear any resemblence to a Hawken and shouldn't be labeled as so. Well, what is actually a Hawken? Is Hawken a name or a model? The reason why I say that is most feel that it is one specific type of rifle or model, when the Hawken brothers made virtually everything from flintlock kentucky type fullstock rifles to the halfstock rifles they are so adamantly defending a Hawken. A real Hawken to one might mean a flintlock fullstock and real Hawken to another might mean a halfstock percussion. They're both MADE by Hawken but are distinctively different models. Really, a Hawken is a Winchester. Hawken was a gun maker like Winchester. They both made many different models. If the gun has Winchester on the barrel in the standard company logo, than it is a Winchester. Same with a J S Hawken. Now, here's the big question, what model is it?????? Did Sam Hawken call it his "Plains rifle"? Only he knows what he called each of his different models of rifles. That is why we call them the "Kit Carson" or "Jim Bridger" MODELS today. Because we don't really know the model they are by the Hawken Brothers standard. Standing wolf did not say he had a Hawken-Hawken. He said he had a Springfield-Hawken which means it not a Hawken's Bothers manufactured gun at all but a Springfield manufactured gun, model: Hawken. When people say TC Hawken again, it is a Thompson Center manufactured model: Hawken. The reason why manufacturers can use the "Hawken" name as a model is that it was never trade marked like Winchester was. Do you think forums on the "Henry" rifles go thru the same thing? Why even bring up the "Hawken" issue. I think sometimes it's just some trying to be know-it-alls or nit-pickers. The other thing the purists (ones with a point to make on the subject, not all purists) failed to realize that because of all these "terrible" Hawken replicas, peoples interest in the originals, and the values of the originals, has done nothing but grown to make muzzleloading more popular. Now, to help answer Standing wolf's question. Like was said here by some, the barrel in question was imported by Traditions. They are a customer of the company I work for here in New England. I have been many times to their factory store and they have many "one time" manufactured models that they sell pretty cheap off their wall. They are mostly doing in-lines now but still have a few traditional type Hawken MODELS. Bet I made very few new friends, maybe worse, some new enemies, LOL

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

A Hawken, regardless of what it looked like, was a gun made by the Hawken family and usually by Jake and/or Sam.

It is not a gun made by some company in Spain, Italy or Japan. It is not a gun made by a company in New Hampshire. Regardless of the quality of these firearms, the use of the Hawken name by these companies is a blatant and reprehensible ploy to cash in on the fine Hawken name for the purpose of increasing sales.

It is also a slight to the gunmakers of today who have studied the Hawken rifle and strive to make as accurate as possible a copy for today's serious shooter and collector.

To call those who point out these facts and defend the noble name of Hawken nitpickers is to completely miss these salient points. Usually it comes to light that these obtuse individuals either own a falsely named "Hawken" or have a connection to an outfit that makes or distributes them. Usually such cynical and self-serving people have a grand future in politics, happily wallowing in the slime of half truths that is their daily product. Have a nice day. :hatsoff:

 

[chistech]

So even a american made, exact duplicate of a J S Hawken should not be called a Hawken by your standards because it wasn't made by Hawken. How about the guns made by Gemmers? Made in the same building but not by a Hawken family member. Aren't those considered Hawkens by most? What modern manufacturers have done is to use a non-trade marked name to describe a MODEL of firearm that they sell that has some basic features of a real Hawken. They are not advertising them as exact replicas. I'm not sure, but I would suspect that the Hawken family was at one time, foreigners to this country. Actually, unless your an American Indian, you are a foreigner to this country somewhere down the line. I don't own a "Hawken" rifle but I do own a "Hawken" type Mountain rifle partially made in Spain but with a good old Douglas USA barrel. I call it a mountain rifle. I do have a Zouave made by Antonio Zoli. I hope I don't have people from Remingtom coming to my house forcing me to call it something else. I also have a Pennsylvania rifle made in Tennesee, is it a Penn or a Tenn? Did you know that Winchester had very fine O/U shotguns made by Miroku!! Yes, Japanese, but we still call them Winchester. Oh, almost forgot, MODEL 101's. Does that mean they're not Winchesters? Because even Winchester called them Winchesters. Here in the United Socialist State of Massachuesetts people just have a hard time ever changing their mind. Just look what they did again. Voted back in, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, and Barney Frank. Did you know that a guy named Kennedy bought out the Gemmer estate? Wow, what if he called them "Kennedy Hawkens" and built them on the same equipment that the Hawkens did but wanted to use his name first. Would they be Hawkens. I was born and raised in MA but I don't think like most here. I am always able to see the logical and don't argue on emotion. I think this is pretty funny how such a small thing bothers people. Do people wipe their nose with Kleenex or tissue. If you get cut do you use a Band-Aid or a plastic strip? If you use the word Band-Aid does it mean you are promoting Johnson & Johnson and smearing the good name of Procter & Gamble and their plastic strips? The debate goes on!

 

[ryoung14]

He he :rotf: Go gittem Chris :stir: You're certainly off to a roaring start.

Just remember, to some here, it's a religion. Don't expect them to see the logical side of this.
Bob

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Now you are just being silly and wasting my time. But I'm sure it makes you feel like you have a functional intellect. Talk about nitpicking. And it's only your fourth post too! And I tried so hard to keep it simple. I do hope that the astonishing ability to miss the point will not continue to be the hallmark of your posts. Or is it that you are a troll? :v

 

[R.M.]

Gee, I kinda think he makes sense. :thumbsup:
To each his own.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

He he :rotf: Go gittem Chris :stir: You're certainly off to a roaring start.

Just remember, to some here, it's a religion. Don't expect them to see the logical side of this.
Bob

Now Bob, if you miss as often with your Italian or Spanish "Hawken" as you miss the point of these posts, you'd be better off taking up knitting. :rotf: Maybe you could knit your friend Chris a gun case for his bogus "Hawken". And one for yours. Then you'd match and that would be ever so cute! HEE HEE!!!
:stir:

 

[DEWB]

Standing Wolf, You might give Dick at Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply a shout about a stock. I got a replacment stock for my TC and built a rifle. It is inlet for the TC parts so I don't know if the traditions parts will work or not but not to long ago a seen a picture of a gun that a guy built using the pecatonica stock with parts from his Cabelas rifle and it looked real nice. I'm sure Dick could tell you what would work. Hope this helps and good luck. Dew

 

[chistech]

Thanks RM.
It just seems kind of funny, when I bring up facts and examples to prove my side of the argument, how some then turn the tables to say I'm being the one who's silly and wasting peoples time. By the way, I'm not short, fat, nor do I have a beard or live under a toad stool. So no, I'm not a troll. Your right, I can't be too intelligent, I'm trying to reason with you. It is a shame, when I prove some peoples arguments have little merit, how they become abusive and derogatory to others and then blame you for their attitude. It is also a shame that there has to people like that on forums and that they just can't have a civil disagreement. Thankfully, I joined this site because I saw some forums on a CVA Mountain rifle and I had some questions that were answered by nice, polite people. Now what I'm afraid of is there might be some famous "Mountains" that I'm taking advantage of their majesty by calling it a "Mountain" rifle! I also have to send a email to Greg Roberts and Claudette Green, owners of the Hawken Shop, (they purchased all the original Hawken tooling from Art Ressel, who got it from Gemmer) that due to the "Authorities" here on this forum, they can't call their rifles, and probably their shop "Hawken". Plus, they moved it to Washington state. Foreigners! LOL, Again, this is really funny.
Just a few more facts: Even Hawken family relatives (recently) called the Hawken family made rifles "Plains" and "Rocky Mountain Rifle". I believe they would have more right to call them what they want than anybody here. But wait, now the Hawken family is using someone else's rifle models for names for their rifles. Did they steal the Lyman name for sake of promoting!!!!! It is so foolish. Copying is the best form of flattery.