Hoe Cakes

[coloradoclyde]

Another couple of facts to remember is that hoe cakes are made of corn meal, and not hominy, so are most likely a North American invention. Also,

No....Corn, first discovered in cuba, was sent to Europe... Long before it hit the shores of what we call the U.S.

"At first, corn was only a garden curiosity in Europe, but it soon began to be recognized as a valuable food crop. Within a few years, it spread throughout France, Italy, and all of southeastern Europe and northern Africa. By 1575, it was making its way into western China, and had become important in the Philippines and the East Indies."

 

[Nativearizonan]

Another couple of facts to remember is that hoe cakes are made of corn meal, and not hominy, so are most likely a North American invention. Also,

No....Corn, first discovered in cuba, was sent to Europe... Long before it hit the shores of what we call the U.S.

"At first, corn was only a garden curiosity in Europe, but it soon began to be recognized as a valuable food crop. Within a few years, it spread throughout France, Italy, and all of southeastern Europe and northern Africa. By 1575, it was making its way into western China, and had become important in the Philippines and the East Indies."

Colorado Clyde, I cannot take you serious after making that statement. Sorry, but that is the height of ridiculousness. So corn (maize) was first brought to Virginia and Massachusetts, from Europe? Yeah, right. I know you would argue a west wind blows south, but this is something everyone here recognizes as plain nonsense.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Another couple of facts to remember is that hoe cakes are made of corn meal, and not hominy, so are most likely a North American invention. Also,

No....Corn, first discovered in cuba, was sent to Europe... Long before it hit the shores of what we call the U.S.

"At first, corn was only a garden curiosity in Europe, but it soon began to be recognized as a valuable food crop. Within a few years, it spread throughout France, Italy, and all of southeastern Europe and northern Africa. By 1575, it was making its way into western China, and had become important in the Philippines and the East Indies."

Colorado Clyde, I cannot take you serious after making that statement. Sorry, but that is the height of ridiculousness. So corn (maize) was first brought to Virginia and Massachusetts, from Europe? Yeah, right. I know you would argue a west wind blows south, but this is something everyone here recognizes as plain nonsense.

No!....I am disputing...."that hoe cakes are made of corn meal, and not hominy, so are most likely a North American invention."

 

[Black Hand]

Nixtamalization was developed in the Americas - as such, Hominy is purely a development of the Americas.
"The ancient process of nixtamalization was first developed in Mesoamerica, where maize was originally cultivated. There is no precise date when the technology was developed, but the earliest evidence of nixtamalization is found in Guatemala's southern coast, with equipment dating from 1200”“1500 BC."

"Maize was introduced to Europe by Christopher Columbus in the 15th century, being grown in Spain as early as 1498. Due to its high yields, it quickly spread through Europe, and later to Africa and India. Portuguese colonists grew maize in the Congo as early as 1560, and maize became, and remains, a major food crop in parts of Africa."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixtamalization

 

[Black Hand]

So corn (maize) was first brought to Virginia and Massachusetts, from Europe? Yeah, right. I know you would argue a west wind blows south, but this is something everyone here recognizes as plain nonsense.

It is likely that it could have been brought on the ships from Europe when the colonists sailed here. That said, there were likely indigenous varieties of corn grown by the native tribes as well.

Why is it so unbelievable that the colonists brought maize with them from Europe? It makes good sense if you are planning on farming in a unfamiliar place as it would be truly STUPID not to bring seeds with you...

 

[coloradoclyde]

...."that hoe cakes are made of corn meal, [strike]and not hominy,[/strike] so are most likely a North American invention."

I'm not disputing the part about hominy... I am disputing that "hoe cakes" were a north American invention....especially when Europeans were eating it 100 years earlier than the arrival of the pilgrims. North americans may have invented the name "hoe cake" but it has many other names...

 

[Black Hand]

No argument from me. As a grain, corn (meal) was likely made into cakes of some sort wherever it was cultivated. Not to mention that hominy meal could be easily used to make hoe cakes, as in many respects, it is identical to corn meal.

 

[Nativearizonan]

Ancient Maize Map. Click on the map for an interactive map showing archeological finds of ancient corn by location and color coded to years before present. You will there was corn found in New York State, Ohio, Tennessee and Georgia which dated over 1500 Years Before Present, and in one location East of the Mississippi which was over 2,000 YBP; lots of locations over 1,000YBP:
http://en.ancientmaize.com/

Corn was most likely there well before that, and spread throughout the region. Organic items like corn don't keep well in a woodland environment. In the arid states of AZ and NM, corn older than 4000 YBP has been found in multiple sites.

 

[Nativearizonan]

From earliest Jamestown settler:

Of the planted fruits in Virginia and how they use them by John Smith

The greatest labour they take, is in planting their corne, for the Country naturally is overgrowne with wood. To prepare the ground they bruise the barke of the trees neare the root, then doe they scortch the roots with fire that they grow no more. The next yeare with a crooked peece of wood they beat vp the weeds by the rootes, and in that mould they plant their Corne. Their manner is this. They make a hole in the earth with a sticke, and into it they put foure graines of wheate and two of beanes These holes they make foure foote one from another; Their women and children do continually keepe it with weeding, and when it is growne middle high, they hill it about like a hop-yard.
In Aprill they begin to plant, but their chiefe plantation is in May, and so they continue till the midst of Iune. What they plant in Aprill they reape in August, for May in September, for Iune in October; Every stalke of their corne commonly beareth two eares, some three, seldome any foure, many but one, and some none. Every eare ordinarily hath betwixt 200 and 500 graines. The stalke being greene hath a sweet iuice in it, somewhat like a sugar Cane, which is the cause that when they gather their corne greene, they sucke the stalkes: for as we gather greene pease, so doe they their corne being greene, which excelleth their old. They plant also pease they call Assentamens, which are the same they call in Italy, Fagioli. Their Beanes are the same the Turkes call Garnanses, but these they much esteeme for dainties.
Their corne they rost in the eare greene, and bruising it in a morter of wood with a Polt, lap it in rowles in the leaues of their corne, and so boyle it for a daintie. They also reserue that corne late planted that will not ripe, by roasting it in hot ashes, the heat thereof drying it. In winter they esteeme it being boyled with beanes for a rare dish, they call Pansarowmena. Their old wheat they first steepe a night in hot water, in the morning pounding it in a morter. They vse a small basket for their Temmes, then pound againe the great, and so separating by dashing their hand in the basket, receiue the flower in a platter made of wood, scraped to that forme with burning and shels.
Tempering this flower with water, they make it either in cakes, covering them with ashes till they be baked, and then washing them in faire water, they drie presently with their owne heat: or else boyle them in water, eating the broth with the bread which they call Ponap. The groutes and peeces of the cornes remaining, by fanning in a Platter or in the wind, away, the branne they boyle 3 or 4 houres with water, which is an ordinary food they call Vstatahamen. But some more thriftie then cleanly, doe burne the core of the eare to powder, which they call Pungnough, mingling that in their meale, but it never tasted well in bread, nor broth.

This doesn't sound to me like the colonists were already familiar with the crop or how to make ash cakes (which later led to hoe cakes)

 

[Black Hand]

Yes - but it would still be STUPID to leave your country for an unknown land you were planning to farm without seed-stock. Doesn't matter if corn was already there - the colonists had no idea...

It is an interesting account, but it appears to describe how the natives cultivated corn. Doesn't necessarily apply to the colonists.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Great reference..... :applause:

Just one problem....It doesn't address the prior 100 years of Spanish and Portuguese exploration or growing of Maize in Europe. The English and Dutch were late to the game...

The early impact of Mesoamerican goods on Iberian society had a unique effect on European societies, particularly in Spain and Portugal. The introduction of American "miracle foods" was instrumental in pulling the Iberian population out of the famine and hunger that was common in the 16th century.[1] Maize (corn), potatoes, turkey, squash, beans, and tomatoes were all incorporated into existing Spanish and Portuguese cuisine styles. Equally important was the impact of coffee and sugar cane growing in the New World (despite having already existed in the Old World). Along with the impact from food, the introduction of new goods (such as tobacco) also altered how Iberian society worked. One can categorize the impacts of these New World goods and foods based on their influence over the state, the economy, religious institutions, and the culture of the time. The power and influence of the state grew as external entities (i.e. other European nations) became dependent on Spain for these New Goods in the early 16th century. The economies of both Portugal and Spain saw an enormous increase in power as a result of trading these American goods.

Columbus encountered and noted the cultivation of maize on all of his voyages.[7] The Aztecs and Mayans of Central America had long cultivated several forms of the crop before its introduction into Europe. Traders and merchants brought corn back to Europe in the 16th century where, due to its ability to grow in diverse regions, the crop spread rapidly in popularity. Maize became a pivotal crop in the Turkish Empire and the Balkans by the mid 16th century. Maize became a necessity for the growing Ottoman armies and was noted for its productive harvests. The fact that corn had reached the Ottoman Empire by the mid-16th century certainly suggests it was a prevalent crop in both Spain and Portugal at the time.

We need to close that 100 year gap.......The gap between discovery and colonization...

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Colorado Clyde's point makes one wonder on the true origin of the names, for example...

Johny Cake, or Hoe Cake.
Scald 1 pint of milk and put to 3 pints of Indian meal, and half pint of flower””bake before the fire.
Or scald with milk two thirds of the Indian meal, or wet two thirds with boiling water, add salt, molasses and shortening, work up with cold water pretty stiff, and bake as above.

From: AMERICAN COOKERY: OR THE ART OF DRESSING VIANDS, FISH, POULTRY and VEGETABLES by Amelia Simmons 1796

So in this small text there is no mention of using a cooking nor garden "hoe" in the preparation, and the author thought Johnny Cake and Hoe Cake were synonyms.

She also includes:

A Nice Indian Pudding.
No. 1. 3 pints scalded milk, 7 spoons fine Indian meal, stir well together while hot, let stand till cooled; add 7 eggs, half pound raisins, 4 ounces butter, spice and sugar, bake one and half hour.

No. 2. 3 pints scalded milk to one pint meal salted; cool, add 2 eggs, 4 ounces butter, sugar or molasses and spice q. f. it will require two and half hours baking.

No. 3. Salt a pint meal, wet with one quart milk, sweeten and put into a strong cloth, brass or bell metal vessel, stone or earthern pot, secure from wet and boil 12 hours.


The second recipe sounds like a good cornbread, while the third recipe being boiled sounds much more akin to a wheat flour boiled pudding. She corrects the recipe at the end of the book and mentions it should only be boiled 6 hours. :shocked2:

I didn't find anything on dodgers or cone pone in the book, but she does have a recipe for Indian Slapjacks. One quart of milk, 1 pint of indian meal, 4 eggs 4 spoons of flour, little salt, beat together, baked on gridles, or fry in a dry pan, or baked in a pan which has been rub'd with suet, lard or butter.
:idunno:

LD

 

[Black Hand]

Part of the confusion may lie in the word itself. At the time, grains (in general) were referred to as corn so one must be cautious.

 

[Nativearizonan]

Great reference..... :applause:

Just one problem....It doesn't address the prior 100 years of Spanish and Portuguese exploration or growing of Maize in Europe. The English and Dutch were late to the game...

The early impact of Mesoamerican goods on Iberian society had a unique effect on European societies, particularly in Spain and Portugal. The introduction of American "miracle foods" was instrumental in pulling the Iberian population out of the famine and hunger that was common in the 16th century.[1] Maize (corn), potatoes, turkey, squash, beans, and tomatoes were all incorporated into existing Spanish and Portuguese cuisine styles. Equally important was the impact of coffee and sugar cane growing in the New World (despite having already existed in the Old World). Along with the impact from food, the introduction of new goods (such as tobacco) also altered how Iberian society worked. One can categorize the impacts of these New World goods and foods based on their influence over the state, the economy, religious institutions, and the culture of the time. The power and influence of the state grew as external entities (i.e. other European nations) became dependent on Spain for these New Goods in the early 16th century. The economies of both Portugal and Spain saw an enormous increase in power as a result of trading these American goods.

Columbus encountered and noted the cultivation of maize on all of his voyages.[7] The Aztecs and Mayans of Central America had long cultivated several forms of the crop before its introduction into Europe. Traders and merchants brought corn back to Europe in the 16th century where, due to its ability to grow in diverse regions, the crop spread rapidly in popularity. Maize became a pivotal crop in the Turkish Empire and the Balkans by the mid 16th century. Maize became a necessity for the growing Ottoman armies and was noted for its productive harvests. The fact that corn had reached the Ottoman Empire by the mid-16th century certainly suggests it was a prevalent crop in both Spain and Portugal at the time.

We need to close that 100 year gap.......The gap between discovery and colonization...

As you say, the English and Dutch were late to the game. I believe this would most likely be due to climate. Corn was readily acceptable around the Mediterranean, due to how well it does in arid climates with fairly hot summers, where grain crops like wheat and barley are grown as winter crops rather than summer crops. In Northern Europe, the grains including rye were necessarily grown in the summer, and the fields lay dormant during the winter. The advantage in yield for growing corn was much less in the northern climes, and in much of the area it was just not feasible to grow it.

Since we are talking about mostly English but also Dutch colonists on the East Coast of the US, they were not maize growers and would not have brought maize seed with them to the New World. You can be certain they learned both growing and preparing methods from the local natives in North America, even though there may have been a few high bred types that could have known about maize before traveling to America.

 

[Nativearizonan]

I think some here are being very Euro-centric in their thinking; somehow wanting to prove the colonists did not get anything of value from the existing cultures. That is worth a discussion in itself, but I certainly see such thought poking it's head into this discussion.

I think the question at hand is where the term "hoe cake" came from. Was it from Europe, or was it North American? It was obviously accepted as a synonym for johnny cake by 1796, as per Loyalist Dave's post.

If someone can come up with the term "hoe cake" being used in Europe at an earlier time, I will consider the European origin worth considering, otherwise I feel it is way out of bounds, as it goes against logic and sound reasoning.

So, if no such reference it found, it remains to distinguish between an agricultural hoe or a kitchen hoe as being the source of the name. (Unless the word hoe was a derivative of a Native American word, or there was a popular pub owner in Philly named Jack Hoe who always served free corn cakes with his ale.)

 

[Black Hand]

If someone can come up with the term "hoe cake" being used in Europe at an earlier time, I will consider the European origin worth considering, otherwise I feel it is way out of bounds, as it goes against logic and sound reasoning.

"A rose by any other name is still a rose." The same could be said about hoe-cakes...

It matters not what they were called, it makes better sense to look where maize was available knowing it was ground and made into any number of food items. Also - knowing nearly every culture has their version of a pancake, it would be a near certainty that corn meal was made into a cake that was cooked in a pan/on a griddle/in the ashes/baked in an oven.

Addendum: http://sostanza.com.au/polenta_history_6.html

 

[crockett]

Didn't think the hoe cake thing would have so much interest. Years ago I was told civil war soldiers from the south cooked hoe cakes on the blade of a hoe or shovel. Obviously they date much earlier.
1. I mixed in some flour to hold everything together.
Corn meal, wheat or white flour, baking powder, water. Sort of dry but held together. Make hamburger sized patties and fry a couple of minutes on one side and turn over and cook maybe 5- 7 minutes on the other- I put a tin plate over the top of the pan after I turned them to hold in the heat.
The shovel idea seems to make sense. There was often one around for a group and the long handle would let you stick it over the coals without getting burned.
I was wondering what the original recipe was? Ground hominy (masa flour) might hold together better and you could forget the white/wheat flour.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I was wondering what the original recipe was?

That's a good question.....

There's no doubt that native Americans were eating corn long before the white man.....Ingredients like wheat flour, milk, salt, and leavening can rule out native americans before colonization....some ingredients like leavening can also date it in time....

 

[coloradoclyde]

If someone can come up with the term "hoe cake" being used in Europe at an earlier time, I will consider the European origin worth considering, otherwise I feel it is way out of bounds, as it goes against logic and sound reasoning.

"hoe cake " was likely a colloquialism... Finding those words in foreign languages would be impossible.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Jonnycake, shawnee cake, hoecake, johnny cake, journey cake, and johnny bread.....

They are all colloquialisms... :hmm: