Horrible accuracy after 3 shots

[RockRash]

I inherited a 58cal Italian made rifle from my grandfather. I've never shot it and he was never really interested in it and I think I found out why.
I set my target at 50 yards first shot was a high and to the right next 2 were with in a inch of the first shot. The next shot no where on the target. I tried different holds to see if I could get it to hit anywhere on the target (1.5x3.5 cardboard) and nothing. I decided to run a few wet patches down the barrel and I moved the target to 25 yards. Same thing happened first 3 shots almost in the same hole the 4th not even on the target. I was using 58cal ball ( unknown make it was wat was in his bag) 60grn of 3f goex with a lubed patch.
Now I just can't believe the fouling could be so bad after 3 shots I can't even hit paper. Any ideas?
I also had my son shoot it and he had the same results.

 

[Don Steele]

Welcome RockRash. I hope you can get that rifle figured out and enjoy it. You may very well have discovered why your grandfather didn't have much interest in that rifle. If you and your son are interested in it I recommend you stop using the mystery stuff left over from Grandpa and start over working up a load combination of your own with known components. Some research here, and around the 'net will provide recommendations for successful 58 cal. load combinations ( ball size, patch thickness, patch lube, etc.). As to your immediate problem I suggest you wipe the bore with a "just damp" patch between each and every shot and see if that takes care of the issue you've been having. Some combinations only work well when you wipe between shots. Some combinations allow you to shoot all day without wiping.
It's at this point that I tell this story on myself. In the mid-1970's I woke up one day and just had to have a sure 'nuff Hawken style muzzleloader. I ordered a 50 cal T/C "Hawken" with all the accessories. Of course I didn't know anyone who knew anything about shooting blackpowder and there was no internet to do research. I read the section on muzzleloader shooting in the back of an old Lyman reloading manual, and took off into the woods to begin my BP career. The first couple of shots were no problem. The third one was kinda hard to load, but pushing harder got it down. The fourth one was really hard to load but I was a strapping young man in my 20's and sufficient force got that one down. When I tried to seat the fifth shot....my shiny new T/C ramrod broke and I was provided with the opportunity to learn how to pull a ball. At least you haven't broken anything yet..!! Enjoy the journey, be safe and check back in from time to time.

 

[RockRash]

Welcome RockRash. I hope you can get that rifle figured out and enjoy it. You may very well have discovered why your grandfather didn't have much interest in that rifle. If you and your son are interested in it I recommend you stop using the mystery stuff left over from Grandpa and start over working up a load combination of your own with known components. Some research here, and around the 'net will provide recommendations for successful 58 cal. load combinations ( ball size, patch thickness, patch lube, etc.). As to your immediate problem I suggest you wipe the bore with a "just damp" patch between each and every shot and see if that takes care of the issue you've been having. Some combinations only work well when you wipe between shots. Some combinations allow you to shoot all day without wiping.
It's at this point that I tell this story on myself. In the mid-1970's I woke up one day and just had to have a sure 'nuff Hawken style muzzleloader. I ordered a 50 cal T/C "Hawken" with all the accessories. Of course I didn't know anyone who knew anything about shooting blackpowder and there was no internet to do research. I read the section on muzzleloader shooting in the back of an old Lyman reloading manual, and took off into the woods to begin my BP career. The first couple of shots were no problem. The third one was kinda hard to load, but pushing harder got it down. The fourth one was really hard to load but I was a strapping young man in my 20's and sufficient force got that one down. When I tried to seat the fifth shot....my shiny new T/C ramrod broke and I was provided with the opportunity to learn how to pull a ball. At least you haven't broken anything yet..!! Enjoy the journey, be safe and check back in from time to time.

Well we didn't break anything on the 58 but we did have a situation with a 45 years ago. I bought it used on another gun forum a while back it was a good deal a few hundred dollars. The barrel was very neglected after cleaning I removed the rust and the barrel felt smooth with a patch on the rod. Anyway we went to shoot it and the first shot was pretty good. Unfortunately I forgot to tell my son to use patch lube the dry patch and ball got stuck about a foot into the barrel. Nothing I had with me could send it down so we put it away. When we got home I tried a puller and we ended up breaking the puller in the ball. So I got a old cleaning rod and a hammer and pounded the ball down. We ended up discharging the rifle in the deep end of our pool. I recovered the ball, best of all my wife never found out. My son has the ball with the broken puller in his room on his desk I'll grab a picture tomorrow.

ETA: I've already ordered new balls and different thickness patches from ToTW. BP is definitely a different ball game from center fire.

 

[deermanok]

Welcome new shooter.
As you're finding out, muzzleloading isn't the same as shooting cartridge guns.
For my own shooting and depending on which gun, I'll swab the barrel after every shot or every other shot to keep the black powder fouling to a minimum. Too much build up affects accuracy.

 

[ETipp]

Welcome new shooter.
As you're finding out, muzzleloading isn't the same as shooting cartridge guns.
For my own shooting and depending on which gun, I'll swab the barrel after every shot or every other shot to keep the black powder fouling to a minimum. Too much build up affects accuracy.

I do the same whenever I encounter accuracy issues. And I always do so when shooting conical bullets. I understand that shooting patch and round ball reduces the necessary wiping the barrel between shots. One reason why I wanted to go back to shooting RB.

Rock Rash, you have come to the right place for information. Lots to be learned here. It may be a bit time consuming and a lot of trial and error but if you are diligent in your search, its to my belief you will get that ole .58 shooting well.

 

[Phil Coffins]

Which 58 calibre rifle do you have and what lube are you using? The more we know about the gun and load the better the help you’ll get.

 

[renegadehunter]

I have a .54 TC Renegade that shoots exactly the same. It will put the first two touching, third will be a bit left of them, from fourth shot on they go to parts unknown...if I don't swab.
Swab it at least every other shot and it'll shoot groups you'd show to your buddies without hesitation.
I tried different patch thicknesses, different lubes both "range" and "hunting" styles, not much difference. Fourth shot goes haywire. I gave up trying to "fix" it and just swab it.

 

[64Springer]

Cardboard target is 1.5x3.5 inches or 1.5x3.5 feet? When you say can't hit paper at 50 yards, what size is the paper?

The worst muzzle loader ever made won't be fully off the target on one shot if one of the other shots landed on the target.

Especially if the same powder/projectile combination was used.

There is always some user error involved somewhere. Generally a sighting issue. Or a severe flinch.

 

[RockRash]

Which 58 calibre rifle do you have and what lube are you using? The more we know about the gun and load the better the help you’ll get.

It only says made in Italy. I'll grab some pictures when I get home.

 

[RockRash]

1.5x3.5 inches or feet?

The worst muzzle loader ever made won't be fully off the target on one shot if one of the other shots landed on the target.

Especially if the same powder/projectile combination was used.

There is always some user error involved somewhere. Generally a sighting issue. Or a severe flinch.

Feet, and that was my thinking as well, I just don't understand how I could put 3 rounds in the almost the same hole then after that who knows where they go. I cleaned the barrel and same results. Now I don't claim to be the best shot but I'm not that bad. Same results with my son

 

[64Springer]

Feet, and that was my thinking as well, I just don't understand how I could put 3 rounds in the almost the same hole then after that who knows where they go. I cleaned the barrel and same results. Now I don't claim to be the best shot but I'm not that bad. Same results with my son

If you're new to the gun, getting some time behind it will probably settle things down a bit.

Most of these guns have, by modern gun standards, terrible triggers. The simple act of trying to keep the sights aligned while pulling a heavy trigger can blow a shot.

Try bringing the target closer. If shots are wandering at least you'll know where they're going.

 

[bang]

Had one doing that. Turned out to be front sight had a loose spot. Would be barely snug but would shift over.
New nipple helped a lot on one.
Bedding to eliminate any movement of barrel when hammer strikes.
If the gun was new when GP got it maybe do a bore polish. Fouling likes the rougher finishes. Some barrels back when still needed some TLC to get them right.
Third shot built up enough fouling the 4th was flyer.
Is you PRB tight enough so fouling gets pushed down.
Might try FF.
Good patch lube. Even spit can be a good patch lube. I like 70/30 wax to veggie oil. IMHO the wax helps soften the fouling.
Lots of things.

 

[ETipp]

I have a .54 TC Renegade that shoots exactly the same. It will put the first two touching, third will be a bit left of them, from fourth shot on they go to parts unknown...if I don't swab.
Swab it at least every other shot and it'll shoot groups you'd show to your buddies without hesitation.
I tried different patch thicknesses, different lubes both "range" and "hunting" styles, not much difference. Fourth shot goes haywire. I gave up trying to "fix" it and just swab it.

Indictive of shallow grooves I would say.

 

[deerstalkert]

I have a TC .54 hawken that works the same as the op's.
once i learned to swab after the 3rd shot every time it shoots great.

 

[renegadehunter]

Indictive of shallow grooves I would say.

That's what I've always attributed it to.
I have tried patches so thick that I dang near need a mallet to start them and it still won't maintain fouling consistency enough to shoot them the same.
I usually will swab with one damp pass and one dry, but even just one pass with the damp swab makes all the difference.

 

[cal.43]

@RockRash one question, how was your loading after your third shot, did you feel that there more resistance than before ?
Shooting a roundball for competition I never swap between the shot´s ,but i´m using a moist patch (with water oil emulsion)

 

[longcruise]

Now I just can't believe the fouling could be so bad after 3 shots I can't even hit paper.

Hard to believe, but it can. Wipe after each shot and carry on!

 

[pat i.]

Could try using using a moist patch as was mentioned. I use Mr Flintlock and never have to wipe the bore during a 40 shot match with my .36 caliber. Spit might be something to try too and it's free.

 

[smokepolehall]

Yo my friend stop using 3 F in a .58 cal ! Try the 2 f n start at 50 gr. What lube ? What caps ?

 

[Bismarck]

I inherited a 58cal Italian made rifle from my grandfather. I've never shot it and he was never really interested in it and I think I found out why.
I set my target at 50 yards first shot was a high and to the right next 2 were with in a inch of the first shot. The next shot no where on the target. I tried different holds to see if I could get it to hit anywhere on the target (1.5x3.5 cardboard) and nothing. I decided to run a few wet patches down the barrel and I moved the target to 25 yards. Same thing happened first 3 shots almost in the same hole the 4th not even on the target. I was using 58cal ball ( unknown make it was wat was in his bag) 60grn of 3f goex with a lubed patch.
Now I just can't believe the fouling could be so bad after 3 shots I can't even hit paper. Any ideas?
I also had my son shoot it and he had the same results.

RockRash,
Many years age when I was shooting in the N-SSA I regularly shot 50 rounds of 58 cal Minnie balls through a days shooting without cleaning. I filled the ball cavity with Crisco for lubrican. I would grease the first round externally to season the barrel.